Brazil Unique Unit

[Henri Christophe]

And just used by militares against brazilian during State coup ...

If is to use boats, why don't use boats from Paraguayan war? Or some battle against Argentina?
Why a boat who was never used?

 

[Zaarin]

Yeah. There wasn't a racial dimension to that, and they had a "shared cultural understanding", so the mass slaughter of tens of thousands of people was totally okay. God forbid there was a racial dimension to it. Almost makes it sound like the racism is worse than the indiscriminate and pointless slaughter of human beings for literally no purpose.

Let me be the first to say, and I'll take all the hate mail for it, that at least slavers wanted to keep their chattel alive and in working condition, rather than torturing and killing them wantonly.

As usual, congratulations on taking what I said out of context and twisting it into something I didn't say. All slavery is bad, but not all slavery is equal. There is a world of difference between thralldom (which has been normal the world over throughout most of history) and chattel slavery (which was mostly if not entirely unique to the Transatlantic slave trade). What makes the racial dimension in chattel slavery nefarious is that it literally regards entire groups of people, whether that be Africans or Native Americans, as non-persons, whereas a thrall was simply someone who had the bad luck to lose a war or go in debt. That doesn't mean thralldom is fine and dandy.

The main point, however, wasn't whether any form of slavery is justifiable or acceptable or better or worse than another. The point was how much controversy Firaxis would be willing to incur, and the Twitter keyboard warriors aren't up in arms about Aztec human sacrifice or garland wars. (At least not to my knowledge. I avoid Twitter like the plague--because it is a plague).

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

As usual, congratulations on taking what I said out of context and twisting it into something I didn't say. All slavery is bad, but not all slavery is equal. There is a world of difference between thralldom (which has been normal the world over throughout most of history) and chattel slavery (which was mostly if not entirely unique to the Transatlantic slave trade). What makes the racial dimension in chattel slavery nefarious is that it literally regards entire groups of people, whether that be Africans or Native Americans, as non-persons, whereas a thrall was simply someone who had the bad luck to lose a war or go in debt. That doesn't mean thralldom is fine and dandy.

The main point, however, wasn't whether any form of slavery is justifiable or acceptable or better or worse than another. The point was how much controversy Firaxis would be willing to incur, and the Twitter keyboard warriors aren't up in arms about Aztec human sacrifice or garland wars. (At least not to my knowledge. I avoid Twitter like the plague--because it is a plague).

I agree with you (about the Twitter thing). And also about the Aztec stuff as well.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

As for Bandeirantes, this will never happen in a game that is increasingly moving away from controversial elements.

not to mention the guy who is leading (Pedro II)'s legacy is his ABOLISHMENT of slavery in Brazil... it would be WEIRD to have a unit associated with slavery. That would be like say American lead by Abraham Lincoln to have a confederate unit. just... NO.
Not to mention Pedo II got overthrown by SLAVE OWNERS THEMSELVES because they weren't too happy with his abolishment of slavery...
Dude Henri... WHY?

And just used by militares against brazilian during State coup ...

If is to use boats, why don't use boats from Paraguayan war? Or some battle against Argentina?
Why a boat who was never used?

because it is better than a slaver? when Brazil's BEST leader's legacy was to end slavery? Did you not read about the life of Pedro II?
Here Jack Rackham did a good video few hours ago. Go and watch it

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

because it is better than a slaver? when Brazil's BEST leader's legacy was to end slavery? Did you not read about the life of Pedro II?
Here Jack Rackham did a good video few hours ago. Go and watch it

Ah... Loved that video. Anyway, yeah, not the best idea to put the Bandeirantes as Brazil's Unique Unit when the Leader is Pedro II. I personally believe that them putting the Minas Geraes as the Unique Unit shows they really dug into the history of Brazil.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Ah... Loved that video. Anyway, yeah, not the best idea to put the Bandeirantes as Brazil's Unique Unit when the Leader is Pedro II. I personally believe that them putting the Minas Geraes as the Unique Unit shows they really dug into the history of Brazil.

honestly even daring to suggest it spits on the legacy of poor old Pedro... leave his legacy alone...

 

[Henri Christophe]

because it is better than a slaver? when Brazil's BEST leader's legacy was to end slavery? Did you not read about the life of Pedro II?
Here Jack Rackham did a good video few hours ago. Go and watch it

I love this channel, I had watch this video before.
But, I don't think Brazil should be that proud of end of slavery, because it was the last one to achieve that and our king Pedro II was the entire reign under slavery, just try to over with it in his lastes years in power

 

[Kupe Navigator]

But, I don't think Brazil should be that proud of end of slavery, because it was the last one to achieve that and our king Pedro II was the entire reign under slavery, just try to over with it in his lastes years in power

that is like saying Americans can't be proud of their Abloshement of slavery because it happened later than the British abolishment of slavery ( 1865 VS 1833)
no matter when it happened important fact was it happened. And can you REALLY blame him for taking THAT long when it happened it cost him his throne!
He wanted to do it sooner but stupid slave owners and plantation owners blocked his efforts.

 

[Henri Christophe]

that is like saying Americans can't be proud of their Abloshement of slavery because it happened later than the British abolishment of slavery ( 1865 VS 1833)
no matter when it happened important fact was it happened. And can you REALLY blame him for taking THAT long when it happened it cost him his throne!
He wanted to do it sooner but stupid slave owners and plantation owners blocked his efforts.

Somehow all theses nations should be ashamed of Slavery. How it is possible USA glorify a guy as George Washigton who had slaves? First look of Pedro II speak as great accomplishment of Pedro is "the push against Slavery", for me the greatest shame in Brazilian kingdom was the slavery. Pedro was best friend of Slavery coast kingdoms and just really do something against slavery when was really old, for all live he was the second kingdom of slavery. By the way, both slavery kingdoms fall in 1889. (Brazil and Dahomey)

The only one who don't need to be ashamed of Slavery, in AMericas, is Simon Bolivar, he recieved aid from Haiti and really helps against abolishment of slavery since the biggining of his life project.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Somehow all theses nations should be ashamed of Slavery. How it is possible USA glorify a guy as George Washigton who had slaves?

Nobody glorifies George Washington for having slaves, or any of the people in that time period for having them. They glorify him as a general in the American Revolution, as a Founding Father, and our first President.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

The only one who don't need to be ashamed of Slavery, in AMericas, is Simon Bolivar, he recieved aid from Haiti and really helps against abolishment of slavery since the biggining of his life project.

LOLZ.... Only reason he did that was because he was in DIRE need of Haitian help. In fact Bolivar had racist opinion on NATIVE SOUTH AMERICANS.
Heck he did NOT help blacks that much.
"Bolívar refused, however, to engage slavery and black rights beyond the superficial. Bolívar did write about free blacks, pardos, being important to the shift to democracy and suggested that “national unity could be achieved through racial-mixing.”7 However, such statements had a utilitarian motive and were not meant to encourage pardo liberty. Bolívar sought the help of the region’s large pardo population to achieve independence and supported racial mixing only to promote national unity in the struggle for independence."
https://library.brown.edu/create/mo...y/simon-bolivar-and-restrained-republicanism/
He is no different from any south American leaders who were primarily concerned with creating an independent LATIN AMERICAN NATION!
please RESEARCH before you write!

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Somehow all theses nations should be ashamed of Slavery. How it is possible USA glorify a guy as George Washigton who had slaves? First look of Pedro II speak as great accomplishment of Pedro is "the push against Slavery", for me the greatest shame in Brazilian kingdom was the slavery. Pedro was best friend of Slavery coast kingdoms and just really do something against slavery when was really old, for all live he was the second kingdom of slavery. By the way, both slavery kingdoms fall in 1889. (Brazil and Dahomey)

The only one who don't need to be ashamed of Slavery, in AMericas, is Simon Bolivar, he recieved aid from Haiti and really helps against abolishment of slavery since the biggining of his life project.

I mean, no one here glorifies George Washington for being the master of many slaves. They celebrate him as a General in the American Revolution, as a Founding Father of America, and as its first president, and many other achievements.

Pedro II despised slavery. It's not his fault that much of Brazil's economy back then relied heavily on slavery. Abolishing it right away would have been an economic disaster for Brazil, so he decided in his wisdom to chip away at slavery bit by bit. And then slavery was abolished completely, and the slave owners and generals threw a hissy fit and decided that a coup was actually a good idea.

And Pedro II had many other achievements. He was a strong advocate for the freedom of speech and freedom of the press. He lead Brazil to victory in the Platine, Paraguayan, and Uruguayan Wars, won a diplomatic victory over Great Britain, established education reform, etc. He was friends with Louis Pasteur, Richard Wagner, and Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, and was highly respected by people such as Victor Hugo and Friederich Nietzsche. He could speak and read many different languages and said that if he wasn't the emperor, he would have wanted to become a teacher.

He truly was the greatest Brazilian to ever be born.

Nobody glorifies George Washington for having slaves, or any of the people in that time period for having them. They glorify him as a general in the American Revolution, as a Founding Father, and our first President.

Indeed. Context matters.

Now, back to the topic, the best way to get another Brazilian Unique Unit is to have Pedro II get a Persona for himself and have that Persona have the Fatherland Volunteer Unique Unit.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Now, back to the topic, the best way to get another Brazilian Unique Unit is to have Pedro II get a Persona for himself and have that Persona have the Fatherland Volunteer Unique Unit

definitely no slaver as UU... that's for sure!

 

[Zaarin]

How it is possible USA glorify a guy as George Washigton who had slaves?

As others have said, no one glorifies him for owning slaves, but on top of that he became increasingly anti-slavery later in his life.

 

[Xandinho]

Pedro II despised slavery. It's not his fault that much of Brazil's economy back then relied heavily on slavery. Abolishing it right away would have been an economic disaster for Brazil, so he decided in his wisdom to chip away at slavery bit by bit. And then slavery was abolished completely, and the slave owners and generals threw a hissy fit and decided that a coup was actually a good idea.

And Pedro II had many other achievements. He was a strong advocate for the freedom of speech and freedom of the press. He lead Brazil to victory in the Platine, Paraguayan, and Uruguayan Wars, won a diplomatic victory over Great Britain, established education reform, etc. He was friends with Louis Pasteur, Richard Wagner, and Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, and was highly respected by people such as Victor Hugo and Friederich Nietzsche. He could speak and read many different languages and said that if he wasn't the emperor, he would have wanted to become a teacher.

He truly was the greatest Brazilian to ever be born

Totally true, Pedro II was a great leader.
And as a Brazilian, every time Brazil is in the game I hope it will be led by him. I have zero interest in the presidents after the proclamation of the Republic and I'm not particularly proud of any of them.
Juscelino Kubitschek would be nice but I wouldn't like him at the expense of Pedro II.

 

[Phrozen]

As others have said, no one glorifies him for owning slaves, but on top of that he became increasingly anti-slavery later in his life.

The Founding Fathers were somewhat less enamored, really dependent, with slavery than later politicians even ones from the slave states. Before the mass introduction of the cotton gin many of them probably thought that it would eventually fade away economically to the point they basically punted on the subject during the Constitutional debates. Tobacco does need labor but it needed much less than cotton and could be mechanized far easier.

 

[Zaarin]

The Founding Fathers were somewhat less enamored, really dependent, with slavery than later politicians even ones from the slave states. Before the mass introduction of the cotton gin many of them probably thought that it would eventually fade away economically to the point they basically punted on the subject during the Constitutional debates. Tobacco does need labor but it needed much less than cotton and could be mechanized far easier.

Indeed. Most of the Founding Fathers were conscious of the cognitive dissonance between slavery and republicanism; they simply pragmatically erred on the side of preserving (or rather forming) a union with all states rather than force the issue, knowing that it would have to be addressed sooner or later (or else would fade away, as you said).

 

[Patine]

Once I made a thereat just to discuss that matter> https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/off-how-old-is-your-country.651080/

If you ask any Brazilian, how old is Brazil, he would think in the date 22 Abril of 1500. It is our birthday, but if you ask a Colombian or a Mexican (I ask for both) they always remember the independence movement as born moment of nation (even Mexico who can claim 700 years old prefer claim be younger than USA)
So, by self-recognition of nations Brazil is the oldest country.

If you ask certain people in Israel, Iran, or Japan how old their country is, you might get some historically incredulous, or at least, very dubious by verified record, answers there, too. You read FAR too much into "self-recognition," when national identity in any nation is usually more strongly influenced by pride than fact.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Indeed. Most of the Founding Fathers were conscious of the cognitive dissonance between slavery and republicanism; they simply pragmatically erred on the side of preserving (or rather forming) a union with all states rather than force the issue, knowing that it would have to be addressed sooner or later (or else would fade away, as you said).

If you ask certain people in Israel, Iran, or Japan how old their country is, you might get some historically incredulous, or at least, very dubious by verified record, answers there, too. You read FAR too much into "self-recognition," when national identity in any nation is usually more strongly influenced by pride than fact.

While these discussions are interesting, let's get back to the topic of a Brazilian Unique Unit, shall we. Let's not get off topic too much.

For me personally, only the Pracinha could potentially replace the Minas Gerae, and even then, it's not by that much.

 

[Henri Christophe]

LOLZ.... Only reason he did that was because he was in DIRE need of Haitian help. In fact Bolivar had racist opinion on NATIVE SOUTH AMERICANS.
Heck he did NOT help blacks that much.
"Bolívar refused, however, to engage slavery and black rights beyond the superficial. Bolívar did write about free blacks, pardos, being important to the shift to democracy and suggested that “national unity could be achieved through racial-mixing.”7 However, such statements had a utilitarian motive and were not meant to encourage pardo liberty. Bolívar sought the help of the region’s large pardo population to achieve independence and supported racial mixing only to promote national unity in the struggle for independence."
https://library.brown.edu/create/mo...y/simon-bolivar-and-restrained-republicanism/
He is no different from any south American leaders who were primarily concerned with creating an independent LATIN AMERICAN NATION!
please RESEARCH before you write!

The best friend of Bolivar was a black guy called Dionisio who fight with him in many many battle, he should become a comandante general in this game by the way.

Totally true, Pedro II was a great leader.
And as a Brazilian, every time Brazil is in the game I hope it will be led by him. I have zero interest in the presidents after the proclamation of the Republic and I'm not particularly proud of any of them.
Juscelino Kubitschek would be nice but I wouldn't like him at the expense of Pedro II.

What do you think about Getulio Vargas? He makes a revolution without blood. For me he can be a great second option to Brazil leader, but, I still think Pedro II will be ever the best option for this game.

If you ask certain people in Israel, Iran, or Japan how old their country is, you might get some historically incredulous, or at least, very dubious by verified record, answers there, too. You read FAR too much into "self-recognition," when national identity in any nation is usually more strongly influenced by pride than fact.

Self recongnition should be the most important way to analyze nations. You are american because you think your self as american.

While these discussions are interesting, let's get back to the topic of a Brazilian Unique Unit, shall we. Let's not get off topic too much.

For me personally, only the Pracinha could potentially replace the Minas Gerae, and even then, it's not by that much.

Back to the topic, I still don't understand why people don't like Bandeirantes as the best Unique Unit for Brazil, but I have no problems if our UU become the Pracinhas or the Voluntarios da Patria, I just don't like MInas Geraes because it never was used in war, just against Brazilians in States coup