British and the EU

[Winner]

Yesterday, I accidentally found this on BBC website. There are comments mostly by the British about whether there should be a referendum in the UK about the new EU treaty, which is expected to be signed this fall.

I must say I was staggered by the intensity of the nationalist fervor, ignorance or pure idiocy displayed by the posters there. Basically, they seem to believe that the EU is some kind of Hyper-Bureaucratic Empire created by the evil French in order to suck up money from Britain. They obviously think that the EU would immediatelly collapse should Britain pull out.

Do British people really believe in such crap? I mean I know people are often very ignorant about the EU and my country for instance is commonly said to be eurosceptic, but I've never seen so many prejudices, urban myths and semi-fascist supremacist cries in any 'discussion' concerning the EU on our websites. How's it possible? Who is spreading such lies in Britain?

I am more and more inclined to say "if you don't like it, then get the hell out!" And those of you who know me know, that I've always supported British membership in the EU, unlike many of our French colleagues. But this is really annoying and my stance is a bit shaken now.

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Few examples:
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Labour 2005 manifesto : “We will put the EU Constitution to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a yes vote.”

Other EU leaders have said this is between 95 and 98% of the constitution - the one rejected in votes in France and Holland.

How can Labour give us the vote they promised?

What part of no, non, nej, nien do our masters in Brussels not understand, that they are bringing this constitution back only 2 years after it was thrown out?

Simon, London

As there seems to be a constant stream of stuff coming out of the EU in the form of endless laws and regulations etc, and the fact the a good proportion of my taxes go to fund it, I would consider that after 41 years on this planet (23 years a voter) it is about time that someone asked my opinion on our continued membership of this increasingly out of touch quango. I have noticed the term "member state" seems to have crept in to use.When did we become a state instead of a sovereign nation?

[iamthebadwolf], Mansfield, United Kingdom

Politicians tricked the population into entering the EU. It was supposed to be an arrangement to facilitate trade within Europe. I have no problem with that, but what I will never accept is a United States of Europe situation. I want a referendum now.

The only reason the government won’t hold is referendum is because they know what the result would be – OUT NOW.

There will eventually be another large-scale war in Europe anyway and that'll finish it off for good.

[Walter_E_Kurtz], Guildford, United Kingdom

To the pro-EU camp: How exactly does our EU membership benefit the UK? what do we get for our 115M weekly donation?

One other thing; If I remember correctly Tony Blair surrendered our rebate of 2BN per annum, how does this benefit the UK?

[Replicant]

If you are pro EU, you are by very definition against the "nation state".

I do not see how such a vociferous pro EU minority in the UK feels it can decide the future for all of us.

That is dictatorship.

Whatever your views on this, denying the people a vote is an outrageous insult to democracy.

A federalist superstate, with a Napoleonic system of Law, was not what we voted to join, & is the complete antithesis of what Great Britain is all about.

Great Britain out.

Righty RightProud, Coalville

Typically pro EU spin by the BBC. I suppose because the EU stands for everything BBC folk love - high public spending, institutionalised socialism, and a rejection of the traditions, culture and identify of Britain in favour of a facile (and of course, doomed) internationalism.

[georgeorwell]

Neo Labour have spent billions converting the hearts & minds of the Middle East into accepting "democracy" as the best form of human Governance.

I wonder if McStalin will afford us the same opportunity to exercise our democratic right to set the future course of our own country?

The EU exists to find a reason to exist & of course to give failed politico's a new career when they are turfed out of office in their own countries.

I do not want to be a citizen of a federalist superstate.

Righty Rightwing

And the winner is:

Devastated fishing, crazy Human Rights, housing shortages due to open borders, closed post offices, no right to deport. No “duty free” on EU flights, endless expansion, intrusive directives, waste, red tape, corruption, suspicious accounts. EU symbols on driving licenses, number plates and passports. Foreign Minister; London“embassy”; EU military force; “constitution”; EU flag flying alongside Union Jack and EU zones in UK. 33 years since we expressed our opinion! We demand a referendum.

Peter Pan, United Kingdom

 

[Truronian]

Thankfully, many Brits also realise that EU membership has many more pros than cons... blame the Daily Mail.

 

[stuge]

Those comments make my brain hurt.

 

[Mise]

The irony is, most of these people probably support the CAP. Which is easily the most criminally idiotic thing that the EU has ever done, and takes up 44% of the EU's budget.

 

[kryszcztov]

While I deeply hope that the UK will someday completely take part in the EU activities (Schengen zone, Euro, etc...), I have to say that I'm a bit doubtful about their real motives. The war in Iraq has shown how weak the EU is on the international scene, or to put it simply, that it doesn't even exist as an entity. We have about the same population in Europe than in the USA (maybe more), so there is absolutely no reason at all to be weaker than the USA. The evil UK administration, followed by the (ex-)evil Spanish and Italian administrations (add various Central and East European (vassal) states in that to form the European Axis of Evil), really put Europe to a test. I hope that Sarkozy the Dwarf won't do anything evil as well.

What I am angry at is that it seems the UK is only here for the pros : an open market. If only France and Germany could stop talking 'n cheating, this would allow us to safely ask if the UK deserves its place in the EU. That's it : be pro-active or else get out ! Down with the Atlantic premium ties.

In case someone is wondering, I'm not going anti-USA, just anti-USA/UK as a whole. The UK is a country in Europe, period.

 

[Winner]

... the CAP. Which is easily the most criminally idiotic thing that the EU has ever done, and takes up 44% of the EU's budget.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Lillefix]

you think that's bad. In Norway, there are some real anti-eu-fanaticts. If we join the EU some day, I wouldn't be surprised if norwegian suicide-bombers would begin to appear.

 

[Mirc]

We have about the same population in Europe than in the USA (maybe more), so there is absolutely no reason at all to be weaker than the USA..

We have a significantly higher population.
The US recently hit 300 million.
The EU has almost 500 million, since the last expansion in January (which brought ~33 million people).

And there are other big countries in Europe that are not in the EU (and I'm not saying they should be in, but take for example Ukraine, with over 50 million people, and European Russia, with over 100 million people), so as a whole, Europe has a WAY LARGER population than North America.


On topic, I am disgusted by this attitude. A lot of propaganda has been made against us (the EU, my area of Europe, and my country) there, and I really mean it when I'm saying that Britain was the only country I've been to where I felt unwelcome. Luckily not everyone there is like that.

 

[Winner]

In case someone is wondering, I'm not going anti-USA, just anti-USA/UK as a whole. The UK is a country in Europe, period.

Everybody understands that except the Britons, obviously.

What astonishes me is that British seem to hate the EU for no good reason - the EU is commonly used as a scapegoat in all EU member states, but that's nowhere near to what's happening in the UK - they really seem blame EU for everything, they totally exagerrate the disadvantages and completely ignore the positive aspects of the membership.

What's the root cause of their euroscepticism? English nationalism? Nothing else can explain it.

This new reform treaty is there to make the EU effective and closer to the people. So why they're against it? Yeah, because it comes from the EU and EU = evil. Nothing good can come from it

 

[Suppersalmon]

many people are to easily dubbed by so called journalism in paper like the Mail and express which proclaim the end of Britain by brussles burocrats, despite the fact that there are less burocrats in the European Union than the UK. as soon as you tell people what the european union really does peoples ideas do begin to change its just about education of the benefits.

I really cant see why we should have a referendum on the constitution/treaty its not in our nature to have these referendums we didnt on things such as the single european act and the maastrict treaty which in my opinion are bigger and more radical treaties than the new treaty. The only reason we even talk about it now a days is thank to the conservatives desperately trying to find an issue in 2002 which people would support them on so whipped up all this hysteria about europe.

 

[Winner]

We have a significantly higher population.
The US recently hit 300 million.
The EU has almost 500 million, since the last expansion in January (which brought ~33 million people).

EU will soon have over 500 million people, after it accepts few more Balkan countries. But its population will decrease in the future, due to low fertility.

And there are other big countries in Europe that are not in the EU (and I'm not saying they should be in, but take for example Ukraine, with over 50 million people, and European Russia, with over 100 million people), so as a whole, Europe has a WAY LARGER population than North America.

Europe has about 700 million inhabitants.

On topic, I am disgusted by this attitude. A lot of propaganda has been made against us (the EU, my area of Europe, and my country) there, and I really mean it when I'm saying that Britain was the only country I've been to where I felt unwelcome. Luckily not everyone there is like that.

Yes, just look at their press: "Eastern Europeans are coming, they'll eat our children and steal our jobs!" They seem to be more racist against their fellow Europeans then they're against the minorities which are the real trouble.

Britain refused to join the Schengen zone because they were afraid of foreign migration, but they accept hundreds of thousands of people from their former colonies.

Some of them think they have more in common with the Commonwealth countries than the continental Europe itself. That's just sad.

 

[ComradeDavo]

Very Pro-E.U Brit here.

Together, we are much stronger and wealthier.

I hope to see a united European state one day!

 

[Till]

The irony is, most of these people probably support the CAP. Which is easily the most criminally idiotic thing that the EU has ever done, and takes up 44% of the EU's budget.

It can't be stated often enough. But maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Winner]

Very Pro-E.U Brit here.

Together, we are much stronger and wealthier.

I hope to see a united European state one day!

Well, you must be some kind of a dissident, right?

 

[StarWorms]

I'm not exactly sure if I'm for or against the EU but there are a lot of cons. For example our North Sea oil is now controlled by Europe. We have also ended up with a lot of immigrants coming from the EU. Polish workers can now come over here and claim benefits for children they have back in Poland. Being in the EU it just makes it far easier for them to come over, and the UK government doesn't want to monitor how many people, and which people are coming into the country. The EU is full of a lot of pointless laws, and brits are just fed up with them. For example, they now want to ban the crown on our beloved pint glasses and replace it with an EU symbol. What is the point?

 

[Truronian]

Britain's best selling newspapers are The Sun and The Daily Mail which certainly explains much about why the myth of the evil-EU just doesn't go away.

I'm not exactly sure if I'm for or against the EU but there are a lot of cons. For example our North Sea oil is now controlled by Europe.

Does it matter? We still get the money from it...

We have also ended up with a lot of immigrants coming from the EU. Polish workers can now come over here and claim benefits for children they have back in Poland. Being in the EU it just makes it far easier for them to come over, and the UK government doesn't want to monitor how many people, and which people are coming into the country.

Which is good, as we have a labour shortage.

The EU is full of a lot of pointless laws, and brits are just fed up with them. For example, they now want to ban the crown on our beloved pint glasses and replace it with an EU symbol. What is the point?

Really? link?

 

[GinandTonic]

The irony is, most of these people probably support the CAP. Which is easily the most criminally idiotic thing that the EU has ever done, and takes up 44% of the EU's budget.

Seems everyone is singing from the same page here.

Down with the Atlantic premium ties.

Britain refused to join the Schengen zone because they were afraid of foreign migration, but they accept hundreds of thousands of people from their former colonies.

Some of them think they have more in common with the Commonwealth countries than the continental Europe itself. That's just sad.

The UK has many ties with the commonwealth and the US. We also have more in common with some former colonies than with some EU states.

I'm all for the EU (sans CAP) but not at the expense of all our historical alliances.

 

[bhsup]

Stay with the EU if you must, but please never forget your cousins across the pond. We love you guys over here.

 

[Winner]

What strikes me most is the apparent belief that British system is perfect and that it's EU who brings all the red tape.

What a nonsense. In most cases, it's the national government who screws up and then try to blame the EU. EU sets up directives, saying what should be done. It's up to member countries to write and adopt appropriate laws.

I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but here in Czech rep., the bad laws which were attributed to the EU turned up to be purely Czech mistakes. Also, Czechs (and other post-communist Europeans) tend to be very distrustful of their government, while British are very ambivalent - on one hand, they're very critical of their government, on the other they'd chose it over the Brussels any day.

British are isolationists, although they'd disagree. It's an island mentality.

 

[Disenfrancised]

On this thread in general:

People with emotive and not well thought opinions post in BBC 'Have Your Say' thread! Moderates, realists, and people with brain cells don't bother! More at 11!

Some of them think they have more in common with the Commonwealth countries than the continental Europe itself. That's just sad.

For some of the commonwealth countries we really do have more in common culture wise, and the way things are done in terms of law and government are much more comprehenisble. I do think one of Britain's better possible futures lies with europe, but saying we have more in common with other europeans than the settler colonies is just silly.

What astonishes me is that British seem to hate the EU for no good reason - the EU is commonly used as a scapegoat in all EU member states, but that's nowhere near to what's happening in the UK - they really seem blame EU for everything, they totally exagerrate the disadvantages and completely ignore the positive aspects of the membership.

What's the root cause of their euroscepticism? English nationalism? Nothing else can explain it.

Because culturally Britain has seen itself as part of 'european' culture but not as part of 'The Continents' political culture, much like your perosnnal anti-russian government sentiments its become engrained in the British pysche that every european ruler wants to take over the continent and rule the world.

Plus the (seemingly) constant complaints about Britain from the French and so on despite the fact Britain is (not essential by any means) a major contributor to the budget (second highest net and 4th highest per capita), and yet is complained at for not being helpful enough.

What astonishes me is that British seem to hate the EU for no good reason - the EU is commonly used as a scapegoat in all EU member states, but that's nowhere near to what's happening in the UK - they really seem blame EU for everything, they totally exagerrate the disadvantages and completely ignore the positive aspects of the membership.

Where do you get this impression? I certainly don't see it to anything like the extent you indicate here (i.e. vastly greater than other EU countries), people are far more likely to complain about our own government first. I guess its part of us not wanting to give in - people hate the 'Bush's Poodle' vibe, and hate the idea of giving up a sovereignity won from the monarch whilst the rest of the continent squirmed under absolutists.

What I am angry at is that it seems the UK is only here for the pros : an open market. If only France and Germany could stop talking 'n cheating, this would allow us to safely ask if the UK deserves its place in the EU. That's it : be pro-active or else get out ! Down with the Atlantic premium ties.

What? Why shouldn't we and our government be after whats best for us as nation? . We do 'deserve our place' thank you very much - Britain paid and invested in the EU and has followed the guidelines at least as much as France and Germany have . Frankly its the British-French dynamic that is the root of all this going back to de Gaulle, with a constant war of proganda and words.