burn US flag = ok, burn Mexican flag = crime

[Little Raven]

Ah I see. Sort of like "freedom of speech zones" pioneered by our president.

Sorta, yeah.

Counterprotesting is not illegal. But expect to be given a certain 'zone' to counterprotest in, or even be shut down completely. It all depends on what the local law enforcement thinks. You can always try taking them to court if you disagree, but the ACLU hasn't had much luck with that yet.

 

[Urederra]

If Mr. Warden broke the law, it wasn't simply because he burned a Mexican flag. I assure you, it's 100% legal for you to walk into your backyard, take a dump on a Mexican flag and then send it that giant flagpole in the sky via a bottle of lighter fluid. yuck There is nothing inherently illegal about torching the Mexican flag..

Wouldn't that be indecent exposure? I mean, Is it legal to take a dump in a open backyard? (suppose it is open and everybody can see you taking a dump)

 

[Little Raven]

Wouldn't that be indecent exposure? I mean, Is it legal to take a dump in a open backyard? (suppose it is open and everybody can see you taking a dump)

Open backyard?!? What the?!?



Jesus, man, move to suburbia already. Indoor plumbing rules.

 

[Bugfatty300]

My backyard is big and open. I have to defecate on Mexican flags indoors.

 

[skadistic]

Ah I see. Sort of like "freedom of speech zones" pioneered by our president.

So its illegal to counterprotest now? When people burn a US flag at a minuteman rally why aren't they arrested?

If you did that you'd be a racist. Just like all the MMP members. Anything done against illegals or minorities is automaticly racist. Just look OJ in the steak house. Since hes black its was racist to tell him to leave.


Double standards suck.

 

[Leonel]

OH URP DURRR why's everyone getting worked up over burning a Mexican flag? IT'S JUST A PIECE OF CLOTH DURF DURRRRRRRRR

 

[Kennigit]

1 thing for clarity: Burning the US flag is exactly what you are supposed to do if you have a too worn out flag or inusable flag. But you dont just burn it- I think you cut out the blue field, cut that in half vertically, and then burn the flag as a whole. I'm pretty sure I've seen little news reports about old veterans getting arrested when doing this because they burned a flag, even though it is proper conduct.

 

[JollyRoger]

If you did that you'd be a racist. Just like all the MMP members. Anything done against illegals or minorities is automaticly racist. Just look OJ in the steak house. Since hes black its was racist to tell him to leave.


Double standards suck.

Only OJ's lawyer is saying that. Even Keith Olberman is laughing at calling that incident racist.

 

[Dovster]

Not all flag burnings are created equal. For example, a court is likely to look very differently on me burning an American flag in the middle of a anti-WTO protest, and me burning an Israeli flag on the street just outside the house of my Jewish neighbor.

Context is important.

I don't follow that -- nor do I agree with it.

Your freedom of speech is protected under the First Amendment and that would include burning both the Israeli flag outside of your neighbor's home and doing the same with an American flag at a WTO protest.

Of course, this in no way means that others will take too kindly to what you are doing. They may well use their own freedom of speech to let you know that in no uncertain terms. (Indeed, some may go beyond what is legally permitted.)

I say this, incidentally, as a veteran of both the American and Israeli armies.

 

[Little Raven]

I don't follow that -- nor do I agree with it.

It's pretty simple. One is an act of political speech: I don't agree with American policies, and I'm demonstrating that by burning an American flag. That's protected speech.

The other is much more personal. I'm burning an Israeli flag outside the house of a specific person I know is Jewish. It's not unreasonable for him to interpret that as a threat, which is not protected.

By the same reasoning, it's perfectly legal for me to build a big wooden cross and burn it in my backyard. I can even do so while dressed in white robes and asking for God to purify the land. I can not build a big wooden cross, plant it in front of my black neighbor's house, and burn it there, as historically that means I'm coming for him next.

 

[CaptainF]

Burning any flag should be illegal, even if jesus don't like it.

 

[Bugfatty300]

It's pretty simple. One is an act of political speech: I don't agree with American policies, and I'm demonstrating that by burning an American flag. That's protected speech.

The other is much more personal. I'm burning an Israeli flag outside the house of a specific person I know is Jewish. It's not unreasonable for him to interpret that as a threat, which is not protected.

By the same reasoning, it's perfectly legal for me to build a big wooden cross and burn it in my backyard. I can even do so while dressed in white robes and asking for God to purify the land. I can not build a big wooden cross, plant it in front of my black neighbor's house, and burn it there, as historically that means I'm coming for him next.

OK now you are making something out of nothing. The man in question did not go to someone's house and burn something in their yard.

He was protesting in a public place.

Basically what you keep dancing around but not saying:

Burning an American flag = Political dissent
Burning any other flag = Hate crime

 

[Bill3000]

OK now you are making something out of nothing. The man in question did not go to someone's house and burn something in their yard.

He was protesting in a public place.

Basically what you keep dancing around but not saying:

Burning an American flag = Political dissent
Burning any other flag = Hate crime

Other than the fact that you're making a strawman, as he's only arguing that disruptive speech is not protected by the first amendment, (which it isn't) not that this is a hate crime, he wasn't even jailed for a hate crime in the first place. He was jailed on charges of intimidation, unlawful assembly and disorderly conduct counts. Given the context, that's perfectly fine.

 

[Dovster]

The other is much more personal. I'm burning an Israeli flag outside the house of a specific person I know is Jewish. It's not unreasonable for him to interpret that as a threat, which is not protected.

By the same reasoning, it's perfectly legal for me to build a big wooden cross and burn it in my backyard. I can even do so while dressed in white robes and asking for God to purify the land. I can not build a big wooden cross, plant it in front of my black neighbor's house, and burn it there, as historically that means I'm coming for him next.

The legality of where you burn the flag (or the cross) is not dependent on who might get offended. Hate speech is just as Constitutionally protected as any other.

If you are standing in your neighbor's yard -- on his property -- there are a number of charges which can be brought against you. If you are standing in an area where any open fires are illegal then you would also be open to prosecution.

However, if it is legal for you to make a campfire there and roast marshmallows, then it is equally legal for you to burn a flag.

And, no, burning an Israeli flag in view of a Jewish person, or burning a cross in view of a Black, does not constitute a threat. (Although it does constitute bigotry and incredible stupidity -- neither of which are illegal.)

 

[Bugfatty300]

It would be helpful to know what exactly he was charged for.

He was actually charged with somesort of vandalism thing and "suspected of assault". Probably because the police couldn't charge him with anything else.

 

[Little Raven]

OK now you are making something out of nothing. The man in question did not go to someone's house and burn something in their yard.

I was merely providing an example of how the same action can be legal in one context and illegal in another. For the sake of clarity, I choose two more extreme scenarios.

The details of Mr. Warden's case aren't clear to me. What he was doing may have been legal, or it may not have been; without knowing precise details, I can't really say. But getting to the bottom of this sort of thing is exactly what we pay judges for. I'm confident Mr. Warden will have his day in court.

Basically what you keep dancing around but not saying:

Burning an American flag = Political dissent
Burning any other flag = Hate crime

I'm not saying it because it's not true. Simply burning a flag isn't enough to qualify as a hate crime. (though it may be a component of a hate crime, in the right context) There's nothing inherently illegal about burning any flag...but that doesn't mean you can do it where ever and when ever you want.

 

[Little Raven]

The legality of where you burn the flag (or the cross) is not dependent on who might get offended. Hate speech is just as Constitutionally protected as any other.

You're free to offend. You're not free to threaten. The courts have repeatedly recognized a difference, and upheld the notion that threats are not protected under the First Amendment.

And, no, burning an Israeli flag in view of a Jewish person, or burning a cross in view of a Black, does not constitute a threat. (Although it does constitute bigotry and incredible stupidity -- neither of which are illegal.)

I didn't say you couldn't burn a cross 'in view' of a black person. I said you couldn't burn a cross with the intent to intimidate a black person. The USSC codified that in Virginia vs. Black, back in 2003. And believe me, if you burn a cross in front of a black man’s house, (whether it’s on his property or not) there won’t be a court in this nation that will buy the defense that you were just trying to offend him.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I was merely providing an example of how the same action can be legal in one context and illegal in another.

Gotchya

The details of Mr. Warden's case aren't clear to me. What he was doing may have been legal, or it may not have been; without knowing precise details, I can't really say.

But [before] you were saying what he did was wrong/illegal because he did it infront of a pro-immigration rally, saying that its illegal for the KKK to assemble at a NAACP rally. (I'm pretty sure thats untrue as it happens all the time with all sorts of groups with opposing opinions) Have you moved away from that opinion or what?

There's nothing inherently illegal about burning any flag...but that doesn't mean you can do it where ever and when ever you want.

But not in a public place during a peaceful protest?

 

[JollyRoger]

But [before] you were saying what he did was wrong/illegal because he did it infront of a pro-immigration rally, saying that its illegal for the KKK to assemble at a NAACP rally. (I'm pretty sure thats untrue as it happens all the time.) Have you moved away from that opinion or what?



But not in a public place during a protest?

Cities can legally impose time, place, and manner restrictions on free speech. It very well could be that he can burn the flag at his on rally but not somebody elses or that he could burn the flag in a designated zone of the rally and he chose unwisely instead.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Cities can legally impose time, place, and manner restrictions on free speech. It very well could be that he can burn the flag at his on rally but not somebody elses.

Well he was at his "own" rally counterprotesting the other rally.

Wouldn't Tucson police mention that those were the rules after taking all this flak?