Bz2 - 5CC Overdrive

[Tsukemono5]

1. I looked but the prices were so close I still would have had to shell out gold once I bought Wheel from Aztecs (once it had been devalued by us owning it), so I figured to wait until I could buy in @ 3rd civ.
2. Gah. In one SG the person accidentally turned research off, in this, someone turned it on. What is up with this?
3. I watched it like a seagull. There are two possibilites:
1. Iros discovered IW and Babs Alphabet and traded (unlikely)
2. Iros met someone (probably a commercial or scientific civ) and bought one of those techs, then traded to Babs, who discovered the other (more likely).

@Snaproll:
Good luck and try to find the mystery civ if there is one. If there isn't, explore, expand, and buy Alphabet so we can see Writing when it comes in. Literature=Cheap libraries=fastest way for culture expansion.

 

[Snaproll]

Ok guys I've got the game. As far as falling two techs back in the Ancient age, this is Emperor, and I think that is pretty likely. I also think that it is ok. I'll do my best though.

 

[Earp]

I think researching IW at min research is okay. We need to find iron quickly. I think Stuck_As_a_Mac turned back on research his/her first turn. We have 119 gold and +7gpt. Should we agree not to research anything new for awhile? Everyone will have to check our contacts every turn for trade opportunities.

I would have founded Edrine one tile to the NW. It would have a couple of coastal tiles, but would avoid the one hill tile overlap with Istanbul.

Why did you send the settler unescorted?

Why did you send the settler South? Where did you forsee founding the city? I think there is too much desert to the South.

I think this location to the East would be a better location for our third city. I like the blue dot, but the red or green dot are also possibilities.

I fixed the screenshots. One was way too large.

I think the worker should continue west and irrigate/road the wheat before building a road on the hill.

 

[Snaproll]

I think that's a pretty good plan. For future reference next time we need to scout in a circular pattern around our Capitol before venturing out on long trips. Especially in a 5CC - We need to identify the spots for our cities quickly! For instance, there might be more desert down by the cow, but who knows, there may be more cows! The fact that we don't know yet severly cripples our city founding process.

I think the blue dot is probably pretty ok, but will require an aquaduct obviously. Given our current knowledge of the mpa, that's the best choice, I agree. I'm going to do my best to search the rest of the surrounding areas and figure out where are last two cities should go.

 

[Snaproll]

Turn 0 – 2150 B.C. – Hammurabi and Hiawatha are up Alphabet and Iron Working. I won’t buy IW as I guess we are going to research it. They both want 110 gold for Alphabet. I'll wait and see if Monty gets it so we can get @4th.

Turn 1 – 2110 B.C. Worker moves off the hill to get irrigation started on the wheat. No point in wasting critical worker turns roading that hill now, when there’s food to be had! The extra food will result in more workers sooner, meaning that road will get built eventually, along with a lot more. I switch Edrine to a warrior to scout the area. MM Edrine to work an extra shield and still grow in 1 turn. Checking the Tech – Monty has gone up Alphabet and Horseback writing. Hiawatha has all three (Alphabet, IW, and HR). But, Hammi only has Alphabet and Ironworking. Here we go! 2 for one baby. Buy Horseback riding from Hiawatha for 100 gold (he goes to polite) then I turn around and sell it to Hammi for Alphabet. Excellent. Now we are only down IW.

Turn 2 – 2070 B.C. Edrine goes to size 2. Monty gets IW.

Turn 3 – 2030 B.C. Edrine produces warrior, starts granary. (I would later switch this to a worker, just to get one more kicked out before we go for the granary build).

Turn 4 – 1990 B.C. Worker finishes irrigation on wheat, starts road. Warrior scouting right near Edrine finds another wheat that will not be within the city radius.

Turn 5 – 1950 B.C. Third Settler moves into position on blue dot. AI’s are still up Iron working and that’s it. We still have 15 turns to go.

Turn 6 – 1910 B.C. Istanbul finishes spear, starts settler. Will grow to size 4 in 4 turns and finish settler in 5. This is far preferable to dropping to size 1, as Tsukemono noted in his report. Sure enough, there IS another cow down there right by the other cow! That spot is now too good to pass up, although getting irrigation there may be difficult, I admit. Bursa founded on blue dot.

Turn 7 – 1870 B.C. A Zulu warrior appears out of the mist towards the Aztecs! Now where are they?? They are at the same technological level as every one else (up Iron working). I accidentally enter Aztec territory because it’s impossible to see green territory in the jungle!

Turn 8 – 1830 B.C. Edrine finishes a worker while remaining size 2. I suggest a granary next if we are going to use it as a settler factory. I’m moving this worker to the second bonus grassland near Edrine, then I suggest sending him/her over to Bursa. Everyone is still only up IW.

Turn 9 – 1790 B.C. some dyes spotted to the NE, but they are already claimed by the Aztecs.

Turn 10 – 1750 B.C. Zulu borders spotted in the extreme East. There is a scouting warrior that seems to be in no-man’s land to the south – he’s heading towards the black area south of Bursa. Another warrior is stuck on the other side of the Babylonians.

Commentary and dotmap to come


Save Game

 

[Snaproll]

Ok guys, here's what I think. I believe the two cow spot is now too good to pass up, especially being so close to the Capitol. The first dotmap shows where I think the best location is. It will have one tile overlap, but I can't think of where else it should go.

You'll alos note that in my dot-maps I've put black dots over everywhere iron can pop up, and you'll notice that it looks like we have virtually all the possible sites already within or soon to be within our cultural boundaries. My point is this: we can probably settle our last two cities with out waiting for IW to come in. I'll leave that up to you.

The second dot-map shows a possible site for the 5th city. I think it's important (like, EXTREMELY important) to have a coastal city. There are three spots that look ok, as shown by the dot and two arrows. The dot itself pulls in the most BG but wastes a lot of tiles between the city and the capitol. One of the other locations is probably better. [edit] Oops, moving that coastal city like I suggested will cause considerable overlap. Not sure what I was thinking of. Please guys, make comments!

AS far as the tech research goes, I made that one 2for1 deal, and since then nothing at all has happened. The AI's all have IW and nothing else, and we are about to pull that in at min sci. Looking good! [edit]One more thing I forgot to mention - we can chop the forest with the furs at anytime without any loss of shields. Why? Because furs produce an extra shield. Therefore, we can chop that tile, and assuming there is a normal grassland under that, we can mine that, giving us a 2 food 2 shield tile.[/edit]

 

[Earp]

I like the blue dot. It has overlap with an Aztec city, but the Aztec city will be razed before the overlapping tiles can be used. The 5? BGs around the coastal city will be very helpful.

The red dot has three tile overlap with Edrine. Maybe the yellow dot would be a better location? The incense only provide +1 comm.

Red Dot
8 Grass 2.0.0 (2 shared with Edrine)
1 BG 2.1.0
2 Cows 4.1.0
3 Plains 1.1.0
4 Desert 0.1.0
2 Hills 1.1.0 (1 shared with Edrine)
1 Forest 1.2.0 (shared with Istanbul)
21 Total 32.14.0

Yellow Dot
3 Grass 2.0.0
1 BG 2.1.0
2 Cows 4.1.0
2 Plains 1.1.0
8 Desert 0.1.0
5 Hills 1.1.0 (1 shared with Istanbul)
0 Forest 1.2.0
21 Total 23.18.0

Even with the four extra desert, I think I like the yellow dot better than red dot because of the extra hills and less overlap. Any other opinions?

 

[Snaproll]

You are right about the overlap with Edrine. I must have been tired last night. Yellow dot is certainly a little worse post-hospitals, But it also has 13 non-desert tiles, so I think it will be fine until then, and of course the less overlap ameliorates the post-hospital problems. I agree with yellow dot.

 

[betazed]

Agree with Earp. IMO, since we only have 5 cities production is of higher importance than food. So the Yellow looks more promising.

 

[Earp]

[edit]On the other hand, the yellow dot in my dotmap will need a temple before it can work the cows, while the red dot will not.[/edit]

Another option would be to dispband Edrine and move it to the other side of the river. Moving it one tile to the west would:
1. Make it our coastal town(with only six coastal tiles)
2. Allow it to keep the wheat
3. Keep it on the river
4. Eliminate the overlap with red dot and Istanbul

It may initially sound extreme, but I am not sure exactly how much we would be hurt by disbanding it and the positives may outweigh the negatives. Thoughts?

 

[betazed]

The temple can be whipped IMHO. Disbanding Edrine? I do not know. I know it is not in the ideal location but disbanding our second city?

I do not have the cojones for it. But if you think it will be of more benefit in the long run, go for it.

 

[Earp]

I did not realize that I am up. I've got it and will play tonight.

I am not sure if I have the cojones either, but I thought I would throw the idea out there for discussion because some of you all have 5CC experience. I think we want our five cities to each be in as ideal of a location as possible.

 

[betazed]

Originally posted by Earp
I did not realize that I am up. I've got it and will play tonight.

@everybody: I am maintaining the roster in the first post of this thread. Do I need to explicitly post the roster after a turn has been played.

Let me know what is convnient for all of you.

 

[Snaproll]

Wow. Disbanding our second city? I guess we'd do it by rushing a settler correct? I might be crazy enough to work. Where would you want the blue dot to go in that case? Another site entirely?

I think it's ok to update the front page, but it's also normal to re-post the roster at the end of each turn as a reminder. LK does that, I think. Either way is fine as long as people keep track of it.

 

[Tsukemono5]

IMHO Erdrine is in a good spot. It secures a supply of horsies and the wheat. Though it has overlap, the forests are on grassland. Forests are very good on grassland because they have the ten-shield bonus and the possibility of a BG underneath. Also, since I think a space race victory is very possible, having more shields is better than more food, as has been noted.
I like yellow dot, which we could have already secured , not only because of the lux but because it's close to the desert. Saltpeter is the other thing we need for our all-powerful Sipahi.

But, as has been said (and I fully agree), I am in no way, shape, or form anywhere near the most capable player on this team. If Erdrine is in a bad location, and/or we decide to go for cultural victory , then I'll gladly agree to move the city. I chose this game because it was on the border between what I can do and what I can't. Having failed miserably at Epic 29, I (who do not know when to quit ), have decided to play with good players and maybe become better at the 5CC. So I'm here to learn and hopefully not have too painful of a withdrawal from the .

 

[Earp]

0) 1750 BC
Review the state of the Ottoman Empire and everything looks in order.

1) 1725 BC
Istanbul Settler --> Warrior
The Aztecs found a coastal city on blue dot. The Aztec have seven cities to our three.
Everyone is still up IW on us.

2) 1700 BC
Shaka now has 5 cities, Writing, IW, 67G, and comm with America
Montezuma has 7 cities, IW, and 6G
Hammurabi has 3 cities, IW, and 10G
Hiawatha has 4 cities, IW, and 190 G
Shaka will not sell us Writing. 10GPT and 117G is "I doubt" Switch Bursa to work hill with gold. 12 GPT and 117G is "getting close". Turn off research. 13 GPT and 117G is also "getting close". Ugh! Someone else is going to buy Writing this turn and reap the rewards. Did Shaka get Writing from the Americans? Shaka has 67G and I don't remember him having more last turn. It is difficult to decide if I should buy contact or not. I can buy contact for 6GPT and 31 G. I do not think Abe has Writing. If he sold it to Shaka, the rest of the world would know it also. I put Bursa back on the BG and turn back on min research. We get IW in 8 turns. I think I could increase our GPT if I switch Istanbul to wealth, but I am not sure exactly how this works.

3) 1675 BC
Istanbul Warrior --> Worker
Here is the diplomatic situation. Asking prices are in ( )
Shaka - 195G, IW and Writ(2gpt/127g), contact w/ Americans(50) and Arabs(80)
Monty - 9G, IW and Writ(2gpt/127g), contact w/ Americans(50) and Arabs(80)
Hammi - 12G, IW and Writ(2gpt/127g), contact w/ Americans(50) and Arabs(80)
Hiawatha - 58G, IW and Writ(1gpt/127g)
Buy contact with Abe from Hammi for 1GPT and 28G
Abe - 46G, IW, and worker - He lacks writing
Buy Writing from Hiawatha for Contact with Abe, 4 GPT, and 34 G
Abe has sole contact with the Persians.
Buy contact with the Persians from Abe for Writing and 24 G
Xerxes - 2G, IW , contact w/ Arabs
Trade Xerxes 2G, IW, and contact with the Arabs for Writing
We have iron in a mountain in Istanbul's territory.
Abu - 4G - He lacks writing and contact with Hiawatha
Sell contact with the Arabs and Persians to Hiawatha for 86 G.
Sell contact with the Persians to Shaka for 26 G.
Sell contact with the Persians to Hammi for 21 G.
Sell contact with the Persians to Monty for 9 G.
In Summary,
We spent 5GPT and gained 58 G, IW, and Writing. We are at tech parity and everyone has contact with everyone else. Poor Abu lacks Writing.
I turn off research. We need to watch everyone each turn for when someone gets map making. That will be the next big tech trading turn.
Increase lux because Edrine is about to riot.
I have the save file from the beginning of 1674 BC if anyone wants to pratice their negotiating skills.

4) 1650 BC
Spearman arrives in Edrine and lux tax is reduced back to zero.
Iznik founded in Desert to the South. Production set for temple. The temple should be whipped in 10 turns.

5) 1625 BC
Istanbul Worker --> Barracks - I think we need some vet troops to capture our fifth city.

6) 1600 BC
zzzz

7) 1575 BC
zzzz

8) 1550 BC
The Iriquois have math, but the price is too high. Nobody else has researched any new techs.

9) 1525 BC
zzzz

10) 1500 BC
No new techs have been researched.

The SAVE

 

[Earp]

Although Montezuma might disagree, I think this is the ideal location for our fifth city. I think the hill and mountain will help balance the production loss of the coastal squares. I think this city site could turn out to be pretty powerful.

OTOH, are we sure that we need a coastal city? We are playing a Pangaea map and may never have a need to build a single ship. Maybe we should get map making and reveal the map before deciding if we need a coastal city or not. If we are trying to win by conquest 2000 years in the future and need a ship to capture a last city on an island, we can always disband out least productive city and build a new city on the coast. Just another thought for discussion.

 

[betazed]

on the negotiation there Earp. I have got the save. Will play today.

 

[Tsukemono5]

[dance]w00t!!![dance]
Nice job. This is exactly what I was talking about. Can you post that save, Earp?
IMO, if we don't already have iron in my territory, found that city! Fishing villages have recieved a great boost in PTW with Commercial Docks. Harbor+Comm. Dock+Offshore Platform (or whatever it's called in Civ3) makes for one powerhouse city, which will be important if we go for space.

 

[Snaproll]

I thikn I read in that report that we have a source of iron near Istanbul? Or maybe I'm imagining that. In any case, having a second source is ALWAYS a good idea! I'm all for it!