C&C universe civs

I volunteer for collecting the music for the different era if you want.
Or alternatively: Did you consider having civ specific music?

So in super short terms, you reach the end of Red Alert 2 and if you haven't won the game by than the game just turns into Alpha Centaury and you go "Oh ***" the planet is trying to kill me now".
This sounds so cool. It's something I always wanted in my mod too.
 
I volunteer for collecting the music for the different era if you want.
Or alternatively: Did you consider having civ specific music?
Music will happen after I've made the game functional same as art. The first beta I release if I do at all will be just the raw mechanics. My intent is to get something that's playable for people to bug and balance test while I work on the rest rather than making a finished product only to than realize I made some fundamental mistake and have to start over.

But I will keep you in mind when it comes to that. In the meantime can you offer any comments, questions etc. on what I wrote?
 
How to name and rename the buildings. The Aqueduct is easy but I already renamed the Forge into Factory so what do I call the Factory now?
You could make an online spreadsheet of buildings with old and new names, so all can see what buildings need new names and what you are already settled with.
But I will keep you in mind when it comes to that. In the meantime can you offer any comments, questions etc. on what I wrote?
Sure, I will. Honestly I didn't read the units part thoroughly but they seem fine and reasonable. E.g. Towers are a good idea to combine C&C and Civ feeling.
 
Alright than. I'll leave this post up for a couple days to see what you people think and collect comments and stuff. If anything comes to mind to any of you feel free to post it. Meanwhile I'll try and figure out what to do about the other stuff, post those ideas up as well etc. And correct anything on my end as we go along.
 
Era names
  1. Age of Peace: As you wrote this is a relatively peaceful period and historically the time before WW1 was indeed a golden age of peace and great expectations.
  2. Age of Upheaval: A few conflicts.
  3. Age of Turmoil: More conflics.
  4. Age of Crises: And more.
  5. Age of Chaos: Everything turns upside down as Kane steps on the scene and Tiberium starts to spread.
  6. Age of Vengeance: Take vengeance on old enemies... Or on old friends... Even the planet tries to take vengeance on its inhabitants... Not to mention the possible arrival of aliens in some possible modmod :mischief:
I tried to chose names that reflect your description of eras.
 
By industry. After the appearance of the classic conveyor named after the hero оf capitalist labor Ford, three more major innovations occurred.
1. Numerical control machines - have been distributed since the 1950s 2. Industrial robots/manipulators. Distribution – since the late 60s. 3. Well, the current light in the window is 3D printers.
In general, the factory and industrial complex can be replaced with automated production and a robotic conveyor. Moreover, at one time 80% of industrial robots lived in Japan, so a unique building suggests itself.
The math in the original game is tied to aqueduct/hydraulic engineering. Therefore, it would be logical not to engage in direct "translation". In reality, the hydrotechnical itch with total centralized water supply was provoked by precast reinforced concrete. The technology spread in the 1930s. At the same time, the same reinforced concrete provoked mass construction of reservoirs, mass housing construction, etc.
In general, it seems to me that it is not worth copying the original technology tree literally. If we take technology from the middle of the 19th century (maybe later), then it's... interesting.
And, by the way, very often unexpectedly /fun. "Steampunk" is not exactly what it is supposed to be. Pigeons flying to besieged Paris with... microfilm in the 1870s are interesting not only microfilm. The end of the 19th century is a brilliant of the development of high–tech... pigeon mail. The guys came up with scientific selection and ... in general, late steampunk is also "biotech", what they could not do in technology, they compensated with relatively traditional manipulations.And the beginning of the 20th century is not only the same dovecotes on trucks next to radio stations and carrier pigeons in tanks. These are the first kamikaze drones, radio-controlled boats, and "tankettes", etc.
At the same time, it seems that C&C was inspired, among other things, by such a quasi-alternative technique. The same howitzer on a helicopter is a very real project.That is, a typical atmosphere C&C can be moved back in time
At the same time, if we have, in principle, an alternative timeline with Kirov and Tesla weapons, then we can assume a background with roots in the era of Tesla and Co. proper. There were... a lot of alternative branches of technology and stoned projects.
 
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Tech tree: Personally I would start looking at Caveman to Cosmos modern era tech tree, since it is so overly detailed. Take what you like and cut rest but it can be a good skeleton.
 
By industry. After the appearance of the classic conveyor named after the hero оf capitalist labor Ford, three more major innovations occurred.
1. Numerical control machines - have been distributed since the 1950s 2. Industrial robots/manipulators. Distribution – since the late 60s. 3. Well, the current light in the window is 3D printers.
In general, the factory and industrial complex can be replaced with automated production and a robotic conveyor. Moreover, at one time 80% of industrial robots lived in Japan, so a unique building suggests itself.
The math in the original game is tied to aqueduct/hydraulic engineering. Therefore, it would be logical not to engage in direct "translation". In reality, the hydrotechnical itch with total centralized water supply was provoked by precast reinforced concrete. The technology spread in the 1930s. At the same time, the same reinforced concrete provoked mass construction of reservoirs, mass housing construction, etc.
Good points. That's exactly the sort of suggestions I need. I already had plans to have a concrete resource to replace stone and marble and take up the masonry slot. But you are absolutely right about the rest. I can use robotics to justify the level 2 industry improvements.

In general, it seems to me that it is not worth copying the original technology tree literally. If we take technology from the middle of the 19th century (maybe later), then it's... interesting.
I don't really want to copy and rename the existing tech tree. Rather my goal with this is to make my life easier in terms of game balance by making sure that the player receives :) ,:hammers:,:c5gold:,:science:,:health: and :culture: upgrade buildings at roughly the same rate as in the base game. And to do this I intend to have rough guidelines like:
  • There are two :hammers: upgrade buildings in the base game.
  • You get the first in the classical era and the second in the industrial era.
  • So my mod should have at least 2 :hammers: upgrade buildings and they should be placed in the equivalent eras.
And I would use those as a starting point to tweak from. Like for example I already know I'll need more :health: buildings by the RA1 era because of the extra overhead induced by unit production buildings. But hopefully this will ensure that the rough game balance in terms of how fast you can expand, build units, explore etc. remains the same or similar enough that I don't have to work on rebalancing everything from scratch. Because I don't trust my self to rebalance all buildings in the game on top of everything else.

Of course, things aren't helped by the fact I intend to rip out and repurpose some game mechanics like Religions which is going to wreck early :culture: and :).

And, by the way, very often unexpectedly /fun. "Steampunk" is not exactly what it is supposed to be. Pigeons flying to besieged Paris with... microfilm in the 1870s are interesting not only microfilm. The end of the 19th century is a brilliant of the development of high–tech... pigeon mail. The guys came up with scientific selection and ... in general, late steampunk is also "biotech", what they could not do in technology, they compensated with relatively traditional manipulations.And the beginning of the 20th century is not only the same dovecotes on trucks next to radio stations and carrier pigeons in tanks. These are the first kamikaze drones, radio-controlled boats, and "tankettes", etc.
At the same time, it seems that C&C was inspired, among other things, by such a quasi-alternative technique. The same howitzer on a helicopter is a very real project.That is, a typical atmosphere C&C can be moved back in time
At the same time, if we have, in principle, an alternative timeline with Kirov and Tesla weapons, then we can assume a background with roots in the era of Tesla and Co. proper. There were... a lot of alternative branches of technology and stoned projects.
That's exactly my line of thinking as well.

As for the tech tree, I have a rough skeleton worked out but it's on my other PC. I'll post the skeleton tomorrow evening (that's about 12-14h from now) for you to see. But I'll definitively check out that mod as well to figure out how to fill up the tech tree. I assume you all are fine with reading UML diagrams.
 
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Good points

Thanks :).
Rather my goal with this is to make my life easier in terms of game balance by making sure that the player receives :) ,:hammers:,:c5gold:,:science:,:health: and :culture: upgrade buildings at roughly the same rate as in the base game. And to do this I intend to have rough guidelines like:

Yes, at the initial stage, it is clearly not worth breaking what works. But in general, I had a sneaky idea to revive the early stages of the game just at the expense of rapid progress, which happened in the real 1850-1914. The guys there were wildly changing generations of weapons and ships were becoming obsolete on the stocks + there were needs for new resources. As a result, the situation was nervous and in the end it turned out what happened. But these cunning Napoleonic plans are very much for later.
 
Yes, at the initial stage, it is clearly not worth breaking what works. But in general, I had a sneaky idea to revive the early stages of the game just at the expense of rapid progress, which happened in the real 1850-1914. The guys there were wildly changing generations of weapons and ships were becoming obsolete on the stocks + there were needs for new resources. As a result, the situation was nervous and in the end it turned out what happened. But these cunning Napoleonic plans are very much for later.
Yea, that period was crazy. If one was to set out to simulate that period properly it could easily cover an entire mod and still overflow. But fundamentally I have to temper my designs because the meat here is supposed to be in the 1945 and later period when C&C starts with the rest being preparation. Does not mean I won't have a bit of fun in the early ages of course. Just not as much.

I do for example intend to have the first big warship you can get use predreadnaught battleship art because they just look like something out of C&C.
 
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What are your plans with religion? I have some ideas. Should I share them or you already have your own vision?
I have my own plans that I intend to keep secret for now.
 
I do for example intend to have the first big warship you can get use predreadnaught battleship art because they just look like something out of C&C.

Somewhere in the bowels of the Internet is a board mini-game on the theme of the French shipbuilding school вefore the "Dreadnought". Full of love and mockery. However, almost everything is fine there. Well, there could be a lot of enthusiasm and annoying offers to make another steampunk thing :crazyeye: , but they will not be. There will be an honest expectation of a technological tree:hatsoff:.
 
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Update: Things have come up in real life that are going to cause a delay between 1 day and undefined future. I will post back here when I am finished dealing with things relating to stuff.
 
While you wait here is a question for you. I have been toying with the idea of reusing the religion mechanics to describe ideologies that shape much of the C&C world. So like you'd have Communism, GDI, NOD, etc. as religions. What do you people think of that idea?
 
I fully support it.The nuance is that the balance in vanilla is strongly tied to religion. And to preserve it, there should also be seven or so "religions".
That is, if you estimate approximately, then
1. Yes, at an early stage, three "religions" are enough (liberalism, NOD, "communism/Marxism" – at the same time, Marx's "Communist Manifesto" is exactly the middle of the 19th century). By analogy with Buddhism/Judaism and Hinduism
2. There are even too many applicants for the remaining places.
 
I fully support it.The nuance is that the balance in vanilla is strongly tied to religion. And to preserve it, there should also be seven or so "religions".
That is, if you estimate approximately, then
1. Yes, at an early stage, three "religions" are enough (liberalism, NOD, "communism/Marxism" – at the same time, Marx's "Communist Manifesto" is exactly the middle of the 19th century). By analogy with Buddhism/Judaism and Hinduism
2. There are even too many applicants for the remaining places.
Well there is always fascism. In our timeline the followers of this ideology made the bad decision to side with the Germans and thus their ideology ended up becoming unpopular. But in a world withing a certain Austrian painter the ideology would still exist and likely be popular even to this day. So we have:
  1. Liberalism
  2. Marxism
  3. Fascism
  4. ???
  5. ???
  6. NOD
  7. GDI
And of the remaining two one might be tied to some form of nationalism / imperialism or some such. And I might just call one "religion" to represent the religious revivalism of the modern era.
 
Yeah, according to the canon, Einstein killed Hitler in 1924. That is, Italian fascism is already in power.
And of the remaining two one might be tied to some form of nationalism / imperialism or some such.

1. The Japanese had their own version of a formalized totalitarian ideology – tennoism.
2. In principle, Leninism/Bolshevism will look chronologically normal in place of Confucianism. But in this case Marxism will have to be replaced by a more concrete social democracy.
 
Well I had very similar ideas. Renaming it to Ideologies, like in Final Frontier and some mechanics similar to Dune Wars.

1) Liberalism
Found by a starting tech that is available to all western civs.
Shrine: Statue of Liberty

2) Marxism
Found by starting tech available to Soviets and China.
Shrine: Lenin Mausoleum

3) Nationalism
I'd prefer this name over Fascism. Broader and less "dark". Fund in the later part of the 1st era
No shrine. If possible there should be even no holy city.

4) Divine Destiny
Japan funds it automatically.
Shrine: Imperial Palace

5) Obedience
" Yuri's will is my will. I... must... obey..."
Obviously Yuri auto funds it.
Shrine: Yuri's HQ

6) Globalism
Basically GDI propaganda but broader, not so restricting and we can use GDI name for the civ.
Starts spreading in the 3rd era but no holy city and shrine at that point. Once GDI is formed as a civ, its capital becomes the "holy city" and can build the shrine too.

7) Tiberian Paradise (or Technology of Peace)
Basically Nod propaganda but again, it is broader. Starts spreading with tiberium itself.
Shrine: Temple Prime in Nod capital.
 
Yeah, according to the canon, Einstein killed Hitler in 1924. That is, Italian fascism is already in power.
Fascism and German Nazism are two very different ideologies anyway. I could write a whole essay on this but fundamentally the only two points of contact between them are that they both want a dictatorship and that they happened to fight on the same side in the war. And the later was more a matter of circumstance than any sort of ideological alignment.

Spoiler Too long. Do not read. :
Fascism as an ideology is basically a counter cultural reaction to liberalism and democracy. It's an ideology that emerges in countries who for one reason or another seen democracy as a failure and whose goal is to return society to an era of absolutist control where the state with a strong dictator on top controls all ostensibly for the benefit of the people. In effect, the ideology idealizes the concept of the "benevolent dictatorship" and seeks to establish one. In that respect its closest cousin ideologically is the Roman Imperial system of late antiquity and the concept of respublica where the emperor had absolute power but also a duty to use it wisely rather than anything modern.

In practice of course once you hand anyone absolute power it just devolves into another generic pragmatic dictatorship like Tsarists Russia or pre-revolutionary France where keeping and maintaining power becomes the only goal. But reality always does have this annoying tendency to ruin beautiful theory with ugly facts.


National Socialism on the other hand is a completely different beast. The movement started off a branch of anti-globalist democratic socialism in the 1920's in Czechoslovakia as a reaction to the at the time dominant International Socialism. And at the time it was actually quite reasonable.

You see, when Marx postulated his version of Socialism he called for it to be a worldwide international movement. International as in he and his followers wanted to stage violent revolutions in every country in the world and cover the entire planet in a thick red blanket of dictatorships of the proletariat whose streets would be paved in the corpses of the rich and nobility. This view while quite extreme even to the stuff we hear from the modern radical left attracted a lot of people however because a lot of people were poor, overworked and disenfranchised. And the idea of taking over the world and establishing a system by the people for the people built on a foundation of the dead bodies of those that kept you down sounds quite nice when you are in that position. This is why the early communist movement tended to thrive in places like the collapsing Russian Empire or the collapsed German Empire and why Europe has a long and complicated relationship with anarchist bombers.

At the time and especially after WW1 Marxist socialists actually despised and clashed with not just the right wing but also democratic socialists whom they saw as sellouts. Which, quite naturally would have produced a backlash. Newer the less, things could and did get worse and they did. After WW1 and the Russian civil war the Soviet Union started funding and "advising" communist parties around the world and especially in Europe. See the Spanish Civil War for how nice that went. So that by the 1920's the fear wasn't just that if your local communist party won they would paint the walls red in capitalist blood but that once they were done they would turn your country into a mini Soviet Union or worse a Soviet puppet state.

And that is where Hitler enters the scene. Every society that is in a collapsing state such as the 1917 Russian or 1920's German states produces both right and left wing extremists. The former are the sort of insane world revolutionaries I described that would eventually give us such nice and friendly people like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. The later are ultra-nationalist ultra-racist fanatics that think all social problems can be solved by just killing off or enslaving anyone who isn't a part of their preferred racial or ethnic group.

These two groups hate each other primarily because they both want absolute power rather than anything else. In Russia, their clash produced a civil war. And in 1920's Germany things were not looking much better with pieces of the country actually having their own mini communist revolutions that only ended when ultra-nationalist militias made up of former war veterans discretely armed by the central government marched in to fight them in the streets. So yea, bad times.

Both groups however do have a common point in that they both see liberal democracy as a failure and want to establish a dictatorship ostensibly for the benefit of the people. What Hitler realized is that he could use this common thread to combine the two radical movements based around this concept of a "benevolent peoples dictatorship" if only he combined the worst aspects of both. And in doing so he turned German National Socialism into an unholy spawn of the two with him self on top as its god-king.

Which is to say essentially a radical communist movement that takes cues from ultra-nationalism to claim that whilst the workers are indeed oppressed and should go murder all the "evil" capitalists it's only the non German capitalists that are actually evil. German capitalists are good and proper and would newer oppress the worker because they are both German. And if they are doing that it's only because otherwise they couldn't compete in the market with the "evil" foreign capitalists or pay their loans to the "evil" foreign bankers. So clearly, the solution is for the workers of Germany to conquer the world, murder all the non German capitalists and take their stuff to give to the German capitalists who will than control the means of production for the benefit of the German race. Everybody wins, as long as they are German.

And if this sounds plainly evil that's because it is. Very smart and manipulative yes, but also plainly evil. It is however very different from Fascism. Indeed, the two only really worked together because of circumstance rather than any ideological alignment. Franco wanted help anywhere he could get it. And both Japan and Italy wanted territories that were controlled by the allies so it made sense to side with their enemy. If the territorial situation had been reversed both Italy and Japan could easily have fought on the allied side.

A funny sidenote to all this is that with Hitler removed from the timeline National Socialism would most likely have not turned down the route that it did and would have instead remained along the Czech model of just being a benign version of anti globalist socialism. A sort of "lets build socialism at home for our own people and the workers of the world can fend for them self" sort of idea which even today has relatively broad appeal and would thus possibly have become and remained significant element in modern democratic socialist societies such as those of western Europe. And rather than becoming a bad word in the world of Command and Conquer with an aggressive expansionist Soviet Union looming over Europe it would likely have become the only acceptable form of Socialism in western society. Which is a funny thing to contemplate, you must admit. Like, can you imagine having a conversation and saying: "No, he is a nazi. Those are the good socialists." If nothing else it boggles the mind.

It's one of those bad jokes history makes by showing us how one man at the wrong place in the wrong time can do so much harm.


2. In principle, Leninism/Bolshevism will look chronologically normal in place of Confucianism. But in this case Marxism will have to be replaced by a more concrete social democracy.
Leninism is a direct continuation of international Marxism a strand of international communism that was a serious force in world politics well before WW1. Lenin didn't really invent anything new, he was just the first and really only one of that branch to actually get into a position of true power. It's only when Stalin came to power that the Soviet Union started changing into its own thing.
 
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