C2C Balance Thread

[Sgtslick]

Thinking about it more, perhaps the mod should consider further extending the 'auto-building' of a lot more buildings. Similar to the housing line and such? On that point, i'm still of the opinion that there are too many small buildings with small benefits, I know this is a tired argument from a long time past but as more and more buildings get added so too does the need for a bit of a clean out become more needed. Perhaps rather than simply removing some of the buildings, could they just become gateway buildings instead? As in they are prerequisite buildings for certain buildings but don't actually give any benefit apart from allowing the construction of the said building. +1 1 buildings don't add anything to the gameplay apart from putting additional strain on balance, thats my humble opinion.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It was supposed to be controlling the number of slaves you could assign from your population not settled slaves. I got the wrong tag.

 

[ls612]

Thinking about it more, perhaps the mod should consider further extending the 'auto-building' of a lot more buildings. Similar to the housing line and such? On that point, i'm still of the opinion that there are too many small buildings with small benefits, I know this is a tired argument from a long time past but as more and more buildings get added so too does the need for a bit of a clean out become more needed. Perhaps rather than simply removing some of the buildings, could they just become gateway buildings instead? As in they are prerequisite buildings for certain buildings but don't actually give any benefit apart from allowing the construction of the said building. +1 1 buildings don't add anything to the gameplay apart from putting additional strain on balance, thats my humble opinion.

Well, I agree with you on this one and hope to work on that with Quality of Life in the next cycle.

 

[Yudishtira]

Thinking about it more, perhaps the mod should consider further extending the 'auto-building' of a lot more buildings. Similar to the housing line and such?

When I was thinking about Hydro's (still ridiculous imo) maintenance on Unis, trying to see his side, it struck me that there should be buildings that get built whether we like it or not. On a semi-random basis. I'd like there to be a partly random chance that a given city will (auto-)build a Uni, or a Brothel, or a Gambling Den, etc. etc., without asking my permission. There would be influence from factors such as civics and the city's focus (high-culture, high-research, etc.), and also a random element.

This would reflect the fact that, irl, even the biggest control-freak despot has elements in his society (these days most often banks, but it might also be parliament/nobles - Magna Carta etc. - guilds, the Shogunate/Emperor in Japan, criminal organizations, "the opposition", or just plain human nature - all sorts of things) that he has to compromise with.

 

[Taxman66]

Except you have the problem of manually blowing up said annoying building via CNRTL-A. From there you'll be nagged with 'why do I have to manually remove a building I don't want?'

 

[Yudishtira]

Except you have the problem of manually blowing up said annoying building via CNRTL-A. From there you'll be nagged with 'why do I have to manually remove a building I don't want?'

Well in these cases, it might be prohibitively problematic to use CTRL-A. There would clearly be some involved with doing so, and also loss of stability. In at least some cases, this would need to render demolishing the building completely unfeasible. The uni would be a good example. It would not be advisable to demolish one that your citizens had built off their own bat. Other cases (eg. Brothel, Assassins' Guild, Distillery, Gambling Den) could see you in a non-trivial Civil War with organized crime.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, that's what gets me about the super high maintenance on research buildings (I would define too high as being above a 1 research for 2 gold (AT MOST) ratio myself.) It means that to play most effectively, you'll need to destroy those buildings whenever you dip beneath 100% research on the sliders. Ugh... Even anything worse than a 1-1 ratio means this really.

IMO, if we want more expenses in the game, charge the hell out of defense, administration, and infrastructure stuff and add more cost to unit maintenances. Don't make the whole concept of a building's benefit (to bring in more research) end up making it an actual impediment to its own concept! The way it is now, even if a player would want to CHOOSE to run at less than 100% research, the way these buildings are set up, that's a VERY bad idea without going through and destroying all those research buildings first.

The penalties for destroying a building suggestion would just mean its a trap you'd be walking into to build research buildings and one that would not commonly be worth the risk.

(Sorry H... I prefer to back you up whenever possible, and you managed to convince me it might be worthwhile to the game to have some slightly less conversion rate on buildings than the slider but I'm nowhere near convinced a university would be good to build with such an expense involved. I'm thinking along the lines of MAYBE -15 gold would be more on target. Much worse than that and we have a bad building despite what additional benefits it may additionally bring... and have you considered what this will mean to the ai if the buildings it unlocks are so beneficial that it DOES make it worthwhile to build overall? It means only the player will ever build the building enough to find that out because the AI's just going to vomit out the idea of ever building such a penalty on purpose.)

Interesting idea on auto-builds and I had a similar thought strike me today actually... we could add some tags for such a random spontaneous autobuild and modify those by privitization degrees on civics... interesting but a big project!

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well in these cases, it might be prohibitively problematic to use CTRL-A. There would clearly be some involved with doing so, and also loss of stability. In at least some cases, this would need to render demolishing the building completely unfeasible. The uni would be a good example. It would not be advisable to demolish one that your citizens had built off their own bat. Other cases (eg. Brothel, Assassins' Guild, Distillery, Gambling Den) could see you in a non-trivial Civil War with organized crime.

Brothel and Gambling Den in my opinion are now worth building since I tweaked them yesterday. I also think the Distillery is not too bad either. Especially if you do not have alcohol resource.

Assassins' Guild is only if I really need to make the unit. And you already know what I think of the University.

 

[AIAndy]

Yeah, that's what gets me about the super high maintenance on research buildings (I would define too high as being above a 1 research for 2 gold (AT MOST) ratio myself.) It means that to play most effectively, you'll need to destroy those buildings whenever you dip beneath 100% research on the sliders. Ugh... Even anything worse than a 1-1 ratio means this really.

Mind that you have to consider multipliers. - is considered maintenance so it is amplified or reduced by maintenance multipliers and you pay for it with gold that was increased by multipliers.
So as an example if you have 200% multiplier and half maintenance then 5 from commerce can pay for 20 building cost so a 1 to 4 ratio on the building is the equality point.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ah... so Organized will be all the stronger now. That's a good thing but its also something I have to keep in mind as I work the trait proposal again. Thanks for the reminder on how that works.

H... as always, I'll be happy to work with you and see how things go. I may not have a clear concept of the number mechanisms here, as AIAndy does point out.

 

[ls612]

Brothel and Gambling Den in my opinion are now worth building since I tweaked them yesterday. I also think the Distillery is not too bad either. Especially if you do not have alcohol resource.

Assassins' Guild is only if I really need to make the unit. And you already know what I think of the University.

I only ever build the Assassins Guild in my military production city and compensate with 2 or 3 Guards. Otherwise you are right it is worthless.

With regards to expensive research buildings I think Koshling had a good idea in saying that those should be reduced and the University's expense should cover that to a certain extent.

 

[zeinul]

I have huge surplus (+5-6k per turn) of gold, even with -100 for University. This needs to be addressed.

 

[Flinx]

Maybe you can be a bit more precice?

Which difficulty, what map size and game speed are you using?

 

[Hale_9204]

I just noticed something

I researched Dieselpunk and built the relative culture (to be more precise, culture - dieselpunk is available when researching steampunk, and I don't know if this is an error or what else) and I was able to buod the Very Heavy Tank. It is strength 80 so nothing can be opposed to it since it has even bonuses against other tanks). My suggestion is to give it at least the prerequisite Mechanized warfare (noe it requires only dieselpunk, steel/aluminum wares and biofuels/oil products)

 

[ls612]

I have huge surplus (+5-6k per turn) of gold, even with -100 for University. This needs to be addressed.

That is not helpful. You need to explain your playstyle, your gamespeed and civ, and post a save for it to be helpful.

 

[ls612]

I just noticed something

I researched Dieselpunk and built the relative culture (to be more precise, culture - dieselpunk is available when researching steampunk, and I don't know if this is an error or what else) and I was able to buod the Very Heavy Tank. It is strength 80 so nothing can be opposed to it since it has even bonuses against other tanks). My suggestion is to give it at least the prerequisite Mechanized warfare (noe it requires only dieselpunk, steel/aluminum wares and biofuels/oil products)

Or reduce the strength to 55 or so to make it more in line with it's contemporaries. I'll do that now on the SVN.

 

[Hale_9204]

I think 55 is still too much. Dieselpunk unlocks the Tzar Tank which is strenght 35, and you can get nothing so strong until mech warfare

 

[zeinul]

I usually go for small, but effective army. I try to get as much holy cities as I can.
Dif: Deity. Size: Giant. Speed: Slowest (cant remember).

In addition I still believe that steampunk, dieselpunk and cloackpunk should be national wonders. so AI could get those huge bonuses too.

 

[Sgtslick]

I was going through the gamespeedinfos to make some changes to my version of the file that thunderbrd thought might be useful to be used as an option edit. Was going through each gamespeed and making these changes;
an increase of
45% itrain
38% iconstruct
38% icreate
25% ibuild

Anyway, I noticed Eon has the same iconstruct as eternity, but the itrain is substantially less. I can't imagine this is intended. Oversight perhaps?
Eternity
<iTrainPercent>750</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>1000</iConstructPercent>

Eon
<iTrainPercent>550</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>1000</iConstructPercent>

 

[strategyonly]

your gamespeed and civ, and post a save for it to be helpful.

Have you worked on anything yet for NEW gamespeeds??