C2C Balance Thread

[Sgtslick]

It has the following modifiers:

+1 per city
10% in capital
10% overall

For the first 2/3rds of the prehistoric era, your entire science output IS your capital and the +1 at the time you get choose the first trait is pretty much 10% in itself

Still, even ignoring that +1 you are looking at a 21% (1.10 x 1.10 = 1.21) increase in science.

And I don't know the AI's preferences, but most players will make getting animal myths and elder council a priority so the whole thing snowballs quite quickly

The thing is, the traits as they are now aren't really designed for the cultural upgrade system. A separate trait system was being implemented whereby, each trait had a level, lvl 1, 2, 3 scientific. Level 1 would be much less powerful a version of the trait (designed specifically for early game).

I got about half way through implementing this and it grew tiresome and time consuming, I still plan on finishing it (soon ).

I personally don't play with that option on, the traits you choose, you choose from start to finish depending on the leader for me. I haven't played much scientific so, what im trying to say is - your probably right..

 

[strategyonly]

I got about half way through implementing this and it grew tiresome and time consuming, I still plan on finishing it (soon ).

Please by eom Dec?? thx.

 

[teakbois]

IMO This shouldnt be possible

Playing Huge map on Immortal
Started on a reasonable sized continent, one AI north, one south, one east. A bit small for the 4 of us, but not cramped.

Playing the SVN from yesterday (26th)
Fairly standard settings, except no barb civs (even with the improvements I dont trust my PC to handle it, im already being risky playing on huge), divine prophets, and unlimited wonders.

Again, this is Immortal. As you can see, i filled out the prehistoric tech tree completely

Spoiler :

And even with all those extra techs

Spoiler :

I wiped out both the AI to the North and South with a stack of 5 Horsemen, 2 log rams and 2 huron manlets. And that same stack is about to wipe out the third. 7 cities, 2 captured ones, and both captured ones spread fairly apart. Oh, I should be facing some angry citizens, right?

nope. Stable in all 7 cities.


The weak AI happens, none of the three of them even put up a second city. England had elephants but never got around to using them (does the AI build Elephants?). But on Immortal it shouldnt be as easy as it was. And to be tech lead like that among the other civs I havent met yet?

Now typically the AI catches up in the next era, but with a whole continent free of enemy hunters to steal my animals and no one to steal my land (Barbs have a few cities up, but nothing that cant be easily erased) I stand a good chance at staying in the lead.

Had a very good start (caves and a 3 hammer hill, but no commerce tiles) and built the new caves wonder immediately. Scientific, Expansive, Idealistic, Financial traits chosen.

Already posted about the cave wonder being unbalanced, there is another wonder later in the era that uses caves, perhaps swap them? The other wonder is less powerful (forget the name and tech it comes from). the main problem with the river caves is its available turn one so you get the 3 commerce, 3 hammers and 3 food for the entire era and you can build it before you can tech to stone tool maker or persistence hunting anyway if you start with gathering > cave dwelling for the production boost.

I built 2 of the new wonders. Some AI on another continent built 7 of them. Gonna be a powerhouse city until he hits Sedentary Lifestyle.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@teakbois

How many wonders did you have in a single city? I am wonder if the fact that you have unlimited wonders on means you are getting way too many bonuses than if you had that setting turned off and thus have a limited amount of wonder slots.

 

[teakbois]

@teakbois

How many wonders did you have in a single city? I am wonder if the fact that you have unlimited wonders on means you are getting way too many bonuses than if you had that setting turned off and thus have a limited amount of wonder slots.

I had the River Caves, a 3 production/3 gold/3 culture wonder, and Venus. So yeah, one wonder too many but not ridiculously stacked. Basically an extra citizen in my capital. I built Lasceaux and Inukstusk in a different city.

Of the other AIs, one built 7 wonders in their capital and another built Ikhandi, and one built Neanderthal. Thats it.

I know unlimited wonders can really stack the deck in your favor, but if on immortal unlimited wonders should probably benefit the AI. Or if the AI were more aggressive you wouldnt be able to build wonders, you would need to focus on more defense/military.

Its not just the AIs either, I had no revolutions issues at all despite rapid expansion and 2 conquered AI cities that were a full city location away from the nearest city

 

[Hydromancerx]

@teakbois

Did you have more than one city when getting Venus? That could be very powerful if you did.

 

[teakbois]

@teakbois

Did you have more than one city when getting Venus? That could be very powerful if you did.

No, I rarely build it, but had the nice production going so I went with it while I was waiting for Tribalism. I know it lessens its power building it earlier, but the extra population is still nice enough.

 

[SargontheGreat2]

As the Wonder, I say, raise the wonder limit to 11-13 per city

 

[teakbois]

As the Wonder, I say, raise the wonder limit to 11-13 per city

I think there should be a better way to balance than restricting wonders.

I don't know if the AI takes Wonders into account, but maybe a city with a high number of wonders should have a giant bullseye on it.

You build a city with a couple wonders? Unless its a specific wonder an AI likes, no big deal. You have a few extra and maybe the AI starts sending troops your way. You build excessive wonders (or do the divine prophets strategy to make a city a holy mecca of numerous religions) and your city WILL be coveted and you WILL be attacked.

 

[Azurian]

As the Wonder, I say, raise the wonder limit to 11-13 per city

Wonder Limit has been raised with Cultural Levels already, at last rank you get 12.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

With the latest tech tree changes not only am I finding it easier to stay in the lead I am only taking 2 turns to get a new tech in the ancient era where it used to take 9 turns! In part this is because I am playing with a Sci trait leader.

 

[strategyonly]

With the latest tech tree changes not only am I finding it easier to stay in the lead I am only taking 2 turns to get a new tech in the ancient era where it used to take 9 turns! In part this is because I am playing with a Sci trait leader.

I agree, this is the 1st time in 5 months i have been able to get Sed Life 1st, and i am in front in ancient era also, when i used to be around 15 techs behind always.

Might also be because there is no need for the AI to get those "empty" techs, so its not understanding what is important and what isn't?? Just guessing here

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No idea but I am getting two techs in the time it takes to build 1 unit or building. That is just not right. There is no time to appreciate the buildings and units of an era because you can't build enough. Oh, and now I am not having any money problems either . Yes I am playing snail on noble test games while I try out new stuff...

edit how do I multiply all teh tech costs by 3?

 

[Sgtslick]

No idea but I am getting two techs in the time it takes to build 1 unit or building. That is just not right. There is no time to appreciate the buildings and units of an era because you can't build enough. Oh, and now I am not having any money problems either . Yes I am playing snail on noble test games while I try out new stuff...

edit how do I multiply all teh tech costs by 3?

What era are you in? As I was saying here:

Spoiler :

A few other cases besides itrainpercent which to my knowledge is retained at the starting eras' value. So if you start in prehistoric, that prehistoric value is locked for the entire game. The other era values in the file are simply for when you start in those eras via 'advanced start' option.


Prehistoric
<iResearchPercent>75</iResearchPercent>
Ancient
<iResearchPercent>125</iResearchPercent>

So if you start in prehistoric, its 75 for the rest of the game - research you alter via the itechcostmodifier, not the iresearchpercent.

(((m_iResearchCost * (100 + iGlobalMod)) / 100) * ( 100 + iEraMod)) / 100;
Where where EraMod is tied to iTechCostModifier.


Actually from memory, <iGrowthPercent> is one of the only values where the game actually adjusts to the said value according to which era you are currently in.
iTechCostModifier - is another (which was programmed into the game by afforeness, aiAndy or Koshling I think, can't remember who).

Anyway, hope this helps, as I said i'm no expert, this is just my understanding.

I think Mr. Azure misunderstood the civ4erasinfos.xml, I thought he changed the dll along with the xml file. If not, then he'll need to revert his changes.

Its a pity coz I like where he was going, guess I might just have to go back to replacing the CIV4GameSpeedInfo.xml with my own after each update (so to slow down itrain/iconstruct etc).

 

[Sgtslick]

I was thinking, it might be a good idea to have an option for players to manually adjust the speeds of things while in game (via BUG menu). So if a player dislikes how fast techs are, or how slow improvements are buildings, how fast units/buildings are being constructed, or how slow cities are growing -- they could adjust these values via maybe some kind of slider in the BUG menu, the option would obviously point out that it affects AI too etc.

 

[strategyonly]

I was thinking, it might be a good idea to have an option for players to manually adjust the speeds of things while in game (via BUG menu). So if a player dislikes how fast techs are, or how slow improvements are buildings, how fast units/buildings are being constructed, or how slow cities are growing -- they could adjust these values via maybe some kind of slider in the BUG menu, the option would obviously point out that it affects AI too etc.

Yeah i believe i talked to platying about that already, but he said something int he matter of, it would be too much of an undertaking to adjust everything at once, you'd have to adjust just about everything, but of course it might have just been my meds talking again

But i would definitely like that. I think i said something about even changing it by era.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I started in the prehistoric era and as I was saying I would get two techs while building a gatherer. I think I got 4 techs when built the stone tools workshop.

The problem is that my leader Hatshepsut has the Sci trait. She is my hero so I like playing her.

 

[teakbois]

I started in the prehistoric era and as I was saying I would get two techs while building a gatherer. I think I got 4 techs when built the stone tools workshop.

The problem is that my leader Hatshepsut has the Sci trait. She is my hero so I like playing her.

I am starting a new game and I am not playing developing leaders. Im sticking with the assigned traits and resetting if I get scientific. Should be more interesting playing to a leaders strengths than just science rushing everything.

I think science in general needs to be slowed down. But as for the trait, it definitely needs to be changed. Maybe remove the 10% from capital and make it 5% overall. Would still probably be the strongest trait in the game but not quite as imbalancing, especially early on.

 

[Sgtslick]

Ok ill nerf scientific.

 

[Snofru1]

I just started a new game (SVN 6948) on a standard size map, snail speed, Monarch difficulty. The initial research times are only 2 turns! There is nothing special about my 1st city, it is positioned near a river. Research calculates as follows:

8 from the Palace, 3 from the map.
With 70% research I get 7.7 from 11 .
Nomadic Lifestyle and Language need 15 so this is resulting in 2 turns, which is too fast IMO.

On the other hand the building time of units and buildings is like it should be IMPO, it takes 7 turns for a Stone Thrower to build (with 4 ), so slowing down everything is not good, just research seems to be too quick.