C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[little_cyclone]

Well, maybe it could at least be adjusted to -2 diplomacy for nations with different state religions...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Theocracy (Req Theology)

Medium Upkeep
Requires "State Church" or "Divine Right"
+1 Happiness in all cities
Cities grow 20% Slower
+10% Culture
+10% City Defense
Non-state Religions are much more rebellious
State Religions are much less rebellious
-2 diplomacy with all other nations, "You are no God!"

Get rid of the Red lines as they do not fit a Theocracy. Under Theocracy Birth rates actually increase and Diplomacy is raised to a higher level so that missionaries can enter other countries.

When it comes to Religious Civics why do modders always put things in the mod that are the opposite of what they really are? Are Modders areligious and therefore do not understand the workings of religion? Or do they base their perceptions off the protagonists of religion (any religion). There is a constant negative bias that is put forth repeatedly by these protagonists in the world and their constant protests have created a smokescreen of ignorance about religions. (all this is gonna get me is trouble but I had to say it anyway)

JosEPh

So cities should grow 20% faster.

How about having the Theocracy have an additional -2 diplomacy with people who aren't the same religion as you? That would make sense, as they would be disinclined to negotiate with the "godless heathens".

Well, maybe it could at least be adjusted to -2 diplomacy for nations with different state religions...

Not if anyone is running atheism or if you are polytheist.

So since the purpose of religion in Civ is only to encourage war

-2 diplomacy verses Atheist
-1 diplomacy verses other state religion
-1 diplomacy verses Secular​

Atheists being "godless heathens" and the others are just misguided.

 

[little_cyclone]

Sounds like a decent middle ground

 

[JosEPh_II]

Decent compromise on the Diplomacy then since "the purpose of religion in Civ is only to encourage war". (I actually thought it was for spreading Culture, silly me! )

The birth rate increase doesn't need to be 20%, 10% would work and then that would keep some ppl (but not all) from saying Theocracy is OP cause your cities grow faster with it. It might actually help the AI out too. As the AI of late, from some reports, seems to be growth stunted.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Great CIVIC_THEOCRACY does not exist in the core files!

@anyone know where it is or what it is called?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Didn't it get split into State Church and Intolerant Civics? During the Edrinfall Civic changes era?

In the CivicInfos file Oligarchy is still in there but has the <!--- before it. Doesn't that keep it from showing up?

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

Decent compromise on the Diplomacy then since "the purpose of religion in Civ is only to encourage war". (I actually thought it was for spreading Culture, silly me! )

The birth rate increase doesn't need to be 20%, 10% would work and then that would keep some ppl (but not all) from saying Theocracy is OP cause your cities grow faster with it. It might actually help the AI out too. As the AI of late, from some reports, seems to be growth stunted.

JosEPh

Actually, the primary effect of religion in C2C has seemed to be making one person have obscene Gold and Tech rates. You are after all the one who has been pointing this out for who knows how long.

Great CIVIC_THEOCRACY does not exist in the core files!

@anyone know where it is or what it is called?

It is not there. The two it became are CIVIC_INTOLERANT and CIVIC_STATE_CHURCH.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So why are we arguing over something that is not there.

 

[Hydromancerx]

So why are we arguing over something that is not there.

I think it was a proposal to make a new Civic option under the Government Category.

If you make it I can provide icon/buttons for it.

EDIT: Here is the button/icon. It was hard to pick between an Egyptian Pharaoh and a Pope. So I went with a Pope painting.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Actually, the primary effect of religion in C2C has seemed to be making one person have obscene Gold and Tech rates. You are after all the one who has been pointing this out for who knows how long.

Whoa! Back that buggy Up! I take real exception to that. I think you got some wire crossed somewhere.

If I had "obscene" Gold and Tech rates why would I cry "Foul!" over the "Too Much Gold" mantras that are sung around here all the time?!! The current status of religions in this Mod is the culmination of RoM, AND, AArandas, DH's, and several others work on them over the last 5+ years. Yet newcomers want to come in and (expletive deleted!) them up! I'm Very protective over the state of religions in this Mod! Because They Work!

Not mad at you Is612 but that did fire me up.

It is not there. The two it became are CIVIC_INTOLERANT and CIVIC_STATE_CHURCH.

That's what I said didn't I?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK so I missed a post or two.

Are you requesting a Theology civic? If so in which group/band?

Current suggested attributes:-

Government Civic - Theocracy (Req Theology)

Medium Upkeep
Requires "State Church" or "Divine Right"
+1 Happiness in all cities
Cities grow 10% Faster
+10% Culture
+10% City Defense
Non-state Religions are much more rebellious
State Religions are much less rebellious
-2 diplomacy verses Atheist "Godless heathens!"
-1 diplomacy verses other state religion "Your religion is misguided."
-1 diplomacy verses Secular "Your lack emphasis on religion is misguided."

 

[ls612]

Whoa! Back that buggy Up! I take real exception to that. I think you got some wire crossed somewhere.

If I had "obscene" Gold and Tech rates why would I cry "Foul!" over the "Too Much Gold" mantras that are sung around here all the time?!! The current status of religions in this Mod is the culmination of RoM, AND, AArandas, DH's, and several others work on them over the last 5+ years. Yet newcomers want to come in and (expletive deleted!) them up! I'm Very protective over the state of religions in this Mod! Because They Work!

Not mad at you Is612 but that did fire me up.




That's what I said didn't I?

JosEPh

Sorry, I was thinking mostly about you and sounding the alarm about Religion clustering, and my thoughts must not have been very clear. I agree with you about the religions in C2C in general, I'm just saying that war is not their only purpose.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sorry, I was thinking mostly about you and sounding the alarm about Religion clustering, and my thoughts must not have been very clear. I agree with you about the religions in C2C in general, I'm just saying that war is not their only purpose.

It was me saying "war is the only purpose for religion in Civ IV". We have gone beyond that in C2C.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Religion Clustering is still a problem no doubt.

Are you requesting a Theology civic? If so in which group/band?

This one would need to be in the Gov't Civics wouldn't it? Else it may conflict with State Church and Intolerant under Religious Civics.

And why isn't Oligarchy active?

And why the heck is Slavery a Low instead of Medium cost Civic?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

RAnd why isn't Oligarchy active?

And why the heck is Slavery a Low instead of Medium cost Civic?

JosEPh

Because Hydro is trying to confuse us with discussions else where Oligarchy is not in C2C

Slavery needs its own civic group since it is possible to run slaves with almost any of the other economic civics.

I am not so sure we can implement a civic which requires other civics to be active - how do we force a change if you change the required civics? Interesting challenge.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Because Hydro is trying to confuse us with discussions else where Oligarchy is not in C2C

Slavery needs its own civic group since it is possible to run slaves with almost any of the other economic civics.

I am not so sure we can implement a civic which requires other civics to be active - how do we force a change if you change the required civics? Interesting challenge.

I was pointing out that Slavery only has a Low cost, which I disagree with by the way. The AI uses it still way too much.

Why would Theocracy require other civics to be active? Not sure I follow your reasoning here.

Does hydro "want" oligarchy in the mod or is this a "secret" DH project?

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

OK so I missed a post or two.

Are you requesting a Theology civic? If so in which group/band?

Current suggested attributes:-

Under Government Civic Category.

And it would be called "Theocracy" not "Theology".

 

[Hydromancerx]

Because Hydro is trying to confuse us with discussions else where Oligarchy is not in C2C

I was proposing we add in Oligarchy, Plutocracy and Theocracy as NEW Government type civics.

The order should be ...

- Anarchism (Req None) - 3 Cities
- Chiefdom (Req Chiefdom) - 6 Cities
- Despotism (Req Bronze Working) - 10 Cities
- Plutocracy (Req Currency) - ? Cities
- Monarchy (Req Monarchy) - 15 Cities
- Oligarchy (Req Aristocracy) - ? Cities
- Republic (Req Democracy) - 20 Cities
- Theocracy (Req Theology) - ? Cities
- Democracy (Req Representative Democracy) - Unlimited Cities
- Federal (Req Rifling) - Unlimited Cities
- Fascist (Req Fascism) - Unlimited Cities

Also what number of cities should they allow?

I am thinking ...

Plutocracy = 10 Cities
Oligarchy = 15 Cities
Theocracy = 20 Cities

 

[JosEPh_II]

Since Oligarchy is already in the xml why not go ahead and release it. That way we can try it out.

And I would like to see Theocracy and Plutocracy there as well.

I vote for them just to see if they would be used by the AI.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Dancing Hoskuld

Here are icon/buttons for Plutocracy and Oligarchy.