C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Azurian]

removed

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I was pointing out that Slavery only has a Low cost, which I disagree with by the way. The AI uses it still way too much.

Why would Theocracy require other civics to be active? Not sure I follow your reasoning here.

Does hydro "want" oligarchy in the mod or is this a "secret" DH project?

JosEPh

Just quoting what what was in the initial description. I have far too much stuff on the boil to do anything with civics at the moment.

Since Oligarchy is already in the xml why not go ahead and release it. That way we can try it out.

And I would like to see Theocracy and Plutocracy there as well.

I vote for them just to see if they would be used by the AI.

JosEPh

Is it? And if so is it the same as suggested above? Or is it an old RAND one?

Under Government Civic Category.

thanks.

And it would be called "Theocracy" not "Theology".

This comment makes no sense since it just repeats what is in the definition.

Which leaves us with:-

Government Civic - Theocracy (Req Theology)

Medium Upkeep
Requires "State Church" or "Divine Right"
+1 Happiness in all cities
Cities grow 10% Faster
+10% Culture
+10% City Defense
Non-state Religions are much more rebellious
State Religions are much less rebellious
-2 diplomacy verses Atheist "Godless heathens!"
-1 diplomacy verses other state religion "Your religion is misguided."
-1 diplomacy verses Secular "Your lack emphasis on religion is misguided."

 

[little_cyclone]

What about a subtraction to Science? I imagine a Theocracy would have issue with anything not faith based...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What about a subtraction to Science? I imagine a Theocracy would have issue with anything not faith based...

Then you imagine wrong. Such a disagreement between science and religion is fairly modern. Except in the case of women scientists then they get burnt at the stake once monotheism comes along.

 

[JosEPh_II]

What about a subtraction to Science? I imagine a Theocracy would have issue with anything not faith based...

As DH said, you imagined wrong. This whole faith based thing vs science achievement is a Modern abstraction and did not exist until the last century as non religious proponents advocate or lead the general public to believe. Detractors of theocratic development of science will bring up the dark ages. But the dark ages was eurocentric. The middle east and Asia were hotbeds during those times with many important scientific achievements coming out of strong theocratic gov'ts/ kingdoms/empires.

Theocracies should probably have a 10% boost to science. If not more.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

As DH said, you imagined wrong. This whole faith based thing vs science achievement is a Modern abstraction and did not exist until the last century as non religious proponents advocate or lead the general public to believe. Detractors of theocratic development of science will bring up the dark ages. But the dark ages was eurocentric. The middle east and Asia were hotbeds during those times with many important scientific achievements coming out of strong theocratic gov'ts/ kingdoms/empires.

Theocracies should probably have a 10% boost to science. If not more.

JosEPh

They should also trigger events related to "scientist upsets religious leaders" every now and then, as that happened many times in history.

 

[bill2505]

As DH said, you imagined wrong. This whole faith based thing vs science achievement is a Modern abstraction and did not exist until the last century as non religious proponents advocate or lead the general public to believe. Detractors of theocratic development of science will bring up the dark ages. But the dark ages was eurocentric. The middle east and Asia were hotbeds during those times with many important scientific achievements coming out of strong theocratic gov'ts/ kingdoms/empires.

Theocracies should probably have a 10% boost to science. If not more.

JosEPh

what about theocrashies have a boost to certain tech and a debuff in certain other

 

[little_cyclone]

K, then looking at it from a purely gameplay point of view, what disadvantage is there to this civic? Other then the minor diplomatic penalty (I say minor since most games I play the diplomatic difference is usually well into the dozens in either direction) and a vague statement of "Non-state Religions are much more rebellious", theres no reason not to select this civic and then sit on it for a majority of the game. There doesn't appear to be much balance at this point. Its chock full of pluses and advantages (+1 Happiness in all cities, Cities grow 10% Faster, +10% Culture, +10% City Defense, State Religions are much less rebellious) with little to compensate for it all..

*EDIT* Also, on the point of diplomacy, it would probably be wise (since we're already wandering down that road )to add a +1 or +2 to civ's with the same religion

As always lads and lass, just my 2 .

 

[Koshling]

K, then looking at it from a purely gameplay point of view, what disadvantage is there to this civic? Other then the minor diplomatic penalty (I say minor since most games I play the diplomatic difference is usually well into the dozens in either direction) and a vague statement of "Non-state Religions are much more rebellious", theres no reason not to select this civic and then sit on it for a majority of the game. There doesn't appear to be much balance at this point. Its chock full of pluses and advantages (+1 Happiness in all cities, Cities grow 10% Faster, +10% Culture, +10% City Defense, State Religions are much less rebellious) with little to compensate for it all..

*EDIT* Also, on the point of diplomacy, it would probably be wise (since we're already wandering down that road )to add a +1 or +2 to civ's with the same religion

As always lads and lass, just my 2 .

How about unhappiness for all religious buildings of any faith apart from the state religion? Since people like to build monasteries from many religions, due to the scientific bonuses they give, that would potentially be quite a substantial penalty.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Why can we have Civics like Secular, Atheism, Fascism, Slavery that are Chockfull of Goodies but if a religious one does the same it's cry "Foul!" "Unbalanced" ???

@Koshling,
That might be fine for State Religion and/or Intolerant (another Over penalized Civic) but what about Theocracy coupled with Free Religion?

The proposed Civic only has 4 bonuses and all are at 10%. Civics started off as being a way to upgrade the game path you wanted to use. The cry Balance/Unbalanced has mucked this up imho. Why do Civics needed to be strangled in the Name of Balance, especially Any Civic that has to do with Religions/religious methods?

JosEPh

 

[Rasma]

Theocracy should give penalties for non state religions, such as stability, unhappyness from repression, and the bonuses should only work on cities with state religion

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Theocracy should give penalties for non state religions, such as stability, unhappyness from repression, and the bonuses should only work on cities with state religion

Why, especially if you run it with Free Religion.

 

[Azurian]

Government

Commonwealth - a nation, state, or other political entity founded on law and united by a compact of the people for the common good.

Kritocracy - government ruled by judges.

Alphaship- Government is run by specially extremely rare engineered homo sapiens known as Alphas, with superior genetics to the common person.

Binary Government - Except for the military, government is run by highly advanced computers.

Star Federation - Government made of space colonies ruled by a government that controls the solar system.


Power

Plutocracy – A government composed of the wealthy class.

Oligarchy - a government in which control is exercised by a small group of individuals whose authority generally is based on wealth or power.

Terran - most of the power in the solar system is on Earth.


Society

Virtual - a society based on online identity, which is evolving in the information age.

Transhumania- a society based on body modifications and cybernetics.

Solaris - society united an identity based on the solar system, and we are part of a solar civilization.


Education Civic

Knowledge Downloading- able to download information to the braib directly (req mind uploading)

Language Civic
Binary Latin - humans and cyborgs communicate in one language

 

[Thunderbrd]

IRT Theocracy:

I STRONGLY believe a religiously run government would not impede science as much as a strong State Church, but it would still have to review discoveries and see how they could put a spin on them so that those discoveries don't undermine their power and authority by shattering the religious paradigms of its people, so it would be a bit slower in allowing the populace knowledge of the current scientific development level. Not much different than how our own government covers up the reverse engineering projects that took place at area51 actually.

So I'd give them a -10% on science since they have to take nearly as much time on preparing propaganda as they would to develop those discoveries in the first place.

But I'd also make it a civic I'd want to use nevertheless.

Give it +10% espionage (they'd be very good at social manipulation methods and it would translate into a bonus on espionage... their people would likely be fairly faithful and more spiritually leveragable into handing over information of a state sensitive nature.)

Give it +2 Exp to troops (Those who are patriotic enough to fight for the military would have a religious fervor behind them.)

and make it a second way to access all those neat units that come with the Fanatic civic that I never get to play with because the Fanatic is just too great a hit on research to maintain (rightfully so... I see using Fanatic as a 'lets take full advantage of this era and dominate now even if I'm going to fall a bit behind in a long term sense' or 'I'm already out-teched and not catching up so this will make me a bit tougher and more durable for now' or 'I'm going to try to win the Religious victory' strategy.

 

[JosEPh_II]

A question T-Bird are you basing this on the Dark Ages again?

I disagree with the -10% science because it just does not fit. Only Europe went thru the dark ages not the Middle East or Asia or Africa or the Central Americas either. So statistically while Europe floundered the rest of the world was producing scientific achievements under all manner of Religious founded gov'ts.

As for you other proposals they could be of use.

But, many of our current Civics are overly complicated (read has way too many tweaks). Seems we've lost the way to more simplified ones. The current proposed Theocracy really doesn't need the clutter.

JosEPh

 

[CIVPlayer8]

Just to get a headsup for everyone, I put an "Advanced Civic 2.0" modmod up, so if anyone wants to take a look at it, you're more than welcome.

 

[ls612]

A question T-Bird are you basing this on the Dark Ages again?

I disagree with the -10% science because it just does not fit. Only Europe went thru the dark ages not the Middle East or Asia or Africa or the Central Americas either. So statistically while Europe floundered the rest of the world was producing scientific achievements under all manner of Religious founded gov'ts.

As for you other proposals they could be of use.

But, many of our current Civics are overly complicated (read has way too many tweaks). Seems we've lost the way to more simplified ones. The current proposed Theocracy really doesn't need the clutter.

JosEPh

That last part is especially important. Some civics have so much stuff in them that the text runs off the screen. This is far too complicated, and I think that Civics work best when the KISS method is applied.

As for theocracy specifically, I would like it if it had no scientific impact, negative or positive. I do think though that it should be able to trigger events related to scientific discoveries upsetting the religious/political leaders.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well... I see the point that other religions have had other takes on objectivity. It's thus very difficult to generalize this sort of civic. But -in general- faith is an anathema to objectivity as it is a choice to believe what there may at times not only be no evidence for but in fact evidence against. I'm thinking any religion COULD go up against this as a problem for its flock when discoveries potentially step on the belief structure of the religion itself. That said, admittedly, some religions even preach this understanding itself. Therefore its tough to generalize.

I suppose we must consider that only in Europe were there ever Theocracies. Theoretically, only religions that are maintained FOR power are those that would seek it politically, and are also those that may have to fear from the emergence of new information. Thus, a Theocracy, being a government run by religion/religious figures, would have more to fear, regardless of the religion. More dogma would be developed to enhance the right to power itself if it weren't there originally. I'd think so anyhow.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I suppose we must consider that only in Europe were there ever Theocracies. Theoretically, only religions that are maintained FOR power are those that would seek it politically, and are also those that may have to fear from the emergence of new information. Thus, a Theocracy, being a government run by religion/religious figures, would have more to fear, regardless of the religion. More dogma would be developed to enhance the right to power itself if it weren't there originally. I'd think so anyhow.

Not true at all. In the modern world we have ...

- Islamic States (Mididle East) - Sharia and stuff.
- Vatican City (Europe) - Pope and stuff.
- Central Tibetan Administration (Asia) - Dalai Lama and stuff.

Then historically ...

- Imperial Cults in Ancient Egypt (Africa) - Pharaohs and stuff.
- Mormonism in America (America) - This is actually more like a "Theodemocracy".
- Prince-Bishopric of Montenegro (Europe) - Its on Wikipedia I have no idea about the details.

Theocracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy

 

[JosEPh_II]

That last part is especially important. Some civics have so much stuff in them that the text runs off the screen. This is far too complicated, and I think that Civics work best when the KISS method is applied.

As for theocracy specifically, I would like it if it had no scientific impact, negative or positive. I do think though that it should be able to trigger events related to scientific discoveries upsetting the religious/political leaders.

I could compromise with the No scientific impact. I can see the desire to have an event trigger if you use the Option Revolutions. Otherwise I could live w/o it too. And I would like it very much if this Civic stayed simple.

JosEPh