C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

So are the civics you removed going to go into a new tech category? Specifically ones that have been in the mod before it was C2C such as Fascist and Federal?

 

[ls612]

@CIVPlayer8:
Why was the number of cities on the first government tech reduced to 1? That makes Tribes almost useless, as the next civic (and settler) come at Sedentary Lifestyle. Please change that back.

Also, could you please post a list of the changes you have made?

 

[strategyonly]

@CIVPlayer8:
Why was the number of cities on the first government tech reduced to 1? That makes Tribes almost useless, as the next civic (and settler) come at Sedentary Lifestyle. Please change that back.

Also, could you please post a list of the changes you have made?

I agree ALL the numbers have been disgust and re-disgust before, so they are correct the way they were.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I agree with ls612 and strategyonly. City limits should be left the way they were.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

I agree with ls612 and strategyonly. City limits should be left the way they were.

How's this:
-Anarchism: Limit: 3 unhappy: 2
-Chiefdom: Limit: 8 unhappy: 1
-Monarchy: Limit: 35 unhappy: 1
-Despotism: Limit: 25 unhappy: 1
-Democracy(used to be Republic): Limit: 20 unhappy: 1
-Theocracy/Republic/Technocracy: No limit

@CIVPlayer8

So are the civics you removed going to go into a new tech category? Specifically ones that have been in the mod before it was C2C such as Fascist and Federal?

-Federal will be returning in a new category. Corporatocracy might come back to government. Fascism won't return, as it is basically Despotism+ Nationalist.

@CIVPlayer8:
Why was the number of cities on the first government tech reduced to 1? That makes Tribes almost useless, as the next civic (and settler) come at Sedentary Lifestyle. Please change that back.

Also, could you please post a list of the changes you have made?

The idea was it is very difficult to raise a civilization without a government, but you're right, I just need to see the big picture. I will post changes in the first post in a minute.

I'm sorry about this whole city limits thing, everyone. I will fix it shortly, once I'm back on the PC.

 

[GT Ranma]

.... Why does Monarchy have the highest city limit (Baring nolimit)? Through out history, Monarchies have had the most revolts out of any other government style...

 

[strategyonly]

How's this:
-Anarchism: Limit: 3 unhappy: 2
-Chiefdom: Limit: 8 unhappy: 1
-Monarchy: Limit: 35 unhappy: 1
-Despotism: Limit: 25 unhappy: 1
-Democracy(used to be Republic): Limit: 20 unhappy: 1
-Theocracy/Republic/Technocracy: No limit

.... Why does Monarchy have the highest city limit (Baring nolimit)? Through out history, Monarchies have had the most revolts out of any other government style...

They HAVE to be in order of making it in the tech tree which one comes first, ie:

Each one has to be "higher" than the next one coming up, because you start to accumulate more cities by either making them or raiding them, so Monarchy needs to be 25, Despotism 35 and no other limit need to be in play, UNLESS you have them in a different order??
Order is the main thing, each one gets higher and then higher again etc etc. . . Again worst to best . . .

 

[CIVPlayer8]

.... Why does Monarchy have the highest city limit (Baring nolimit)? Through out history, Monarchies have had the most revolts out of any other government style...

Well, technically, Republic and Technocracy have highest limit. And this has to do with making the populace happy. There is a whole other section for revolutions. The idea was that people are happier with a King than a Dictator (Unless you're Rome, heh heh).

Each one has to be "higher" than the next one coming up, because you start to accumulate more cities by either making them or raiding them, so Monarchy needs to be 25, Despotism 35 and no other limit need to be in play, UNLESS you have them in a different order??

I get what you're saying. You get more cities as the game progresses. But at the same time, I don't want civics to be a "Unlock Next Best One" deal. Otherwise all civilizations will have the same civics. I want it so you pick civics based on your playstyle.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Why was Democracy and Republic changed?

You don't hear "Plato's Democracy" or the "Western World Spreading Republic". It should be the other way with "Plato's Republic" and the "Western World Spreading Democracy".

 

[bill2505]

How's this:
-Anarchism: Limit: 3 unhappy: 2
-Chiefdom: Limit: 8 unhappy: 1
-Monarchy: Limit: 35 unhappy: 1
-Despotism: Limit: 25 unhappy: 1
-Democracy(used to be Republic): Limit: 20 unhappy: 1
-Theocracy/Republic/Technocracy: No limit


-Federal will be returning in a new category. Corporatocracy might come back to government. Fascism won't return, as it is basically Despotism+ Nationalist.


The idea was it is very difficult to raise a civilization without a government, but you're right, I just need to see the big picture. I will post changes in the first post in a minute.

I'm sorry about this whole city limits thing, everyone. I will fix it shortly, once I'm back on the PC.

you are wrong about fascism. fascism is not just despot + nationalism. it is its own ideology

 

[GT Ranma]

I really don't want to get into balancing issues, I just want everything named correctly. Like, Monarchy is a form of Despotism...

But, (I hate when people do that, it means they are going to do what they just said they were not going to do) I almost feel as if that shouldn't be what dictates that size of your government. Just because a government is 'newer' doesn't mean it is better.
And then, if you are going to go with the 'each one is better then the last' then each one should be slightly better then the last. 2-5% more , 1-2 less instability, ect ect. Not completely random stats from one government to the next. That should be what 'Commerce', 'Labor', 'Religion', ect, should be for. They should be to fine tune your country's play style.

@Hydro:
Not sure, but here is the definition of them:
"Democracy" and "republic" are not mutually exclusive, but not identical either. Democracy means "rule by the people" while republic means "rule by elected officials" (as opposed to hereditary rulers). All republics are democracies, but not all democracies are republics (a "direct democracy" is not). (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_a_republic_and_a_democracy)

@bill:
You are right, it is an 'ideology', it is not, in and of it's self, a government. It is a type of Nationalism, I guess if we have a category called Nationalism, we could put it there. (Read this for more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_nationalism)

 

[strategyonly]

Well, technically, Republic and Technocracy have highest limit. And this has to do with making the populace happy. There is a whole other section for revolutions. The idea was that people are happier with a King than a Dictator (Unless you're Rome, heh heh).
I get what you're saying. You get more cities as the game progresses. But at the same time, I don't want civics to be a "Unlock Next Best One" deal. Otherwise all civilizations will have the same civics. I want it so you pick civics based on your playstyle.

OK NOW i see what your saying, OK then if your going that way, eliminate the City Limit then on those, that way they have ONE heck of a decision to make, should i or shouldn't I, one little thing like that can make or break you then . . . SO

 

[CIVPlayer8]

Why was Democracy and Republic changed?

You don't hear "Plato's Democracy" or the "Western World Spreading Republic". It should be the other way with "Plato's Republic" and the "Western World Spreading Democracy".

I was going off the "definition" of the civic. Democracy is where the citizens vote on key issues, and republic is where citizens vote for a leader, although in the real world they're reversed.

you are wrong about fascism. fascism is not just despot + nationalism. it is its own ideology

I know. It is a very unique ideology. What I would like, is some way to "upgrade" your civic. Like, Despotism -> Fascism, and Democracy -> Digital Democracy. Maybe I'm just not thinking of it...
But, (I hate when people do that, it means they are going to do what they just said they were not going to do) I almost feel as if that shouldn't be what dictates that size of your government. Just because a government is 'newer' doesn't mean it is better.

And then, if you are going to go with the 'each one is better then the last' then each one should be slightly better then the last. 2-5% more , 1-2 less instability, ect ect. Not completely random stats from one government to the next. That should be what 'Commerce', 'Labor', 'Religion', ect, should be for. They should be to fine tune your country's play style.

Except for Language and partly Agriculture, I would like everything to be by choice. That's the fun in civics, you get to choose what government you want, not "go with the flow".

that way they have ONE heck of a decision to make, should i or shouldn't I, one little thing like that can make or break you then . . . SO

That's the spirit!
Civic City Limits Changed

 

[GT Ranma]

Except for Language and partly Agriculture, I would like everything to be by choice. That's the fun in civics, you get to choose what government you want, not "go with the flow".

*nodnod* I completely agree.

With that being said, I still think there should be some sort of structure to them. Say, 3 play styles. Money, Military and Research? (4 seems to much)

So each of the civics would play on 1 of these 3 strengths, so you can decide your play style through which government / civics you have.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

*nodnod* I completely agree.

With that being said, I still think there should be some sort of structure to them. Say, 3 play styles. Money, Military and Research? (4 seems to much)

So each of the civics would play on 1 of these 3 strengths, so you can decide your play style through which government / civics you have.

Four might be too much, but I think that's what we have to work with. Research, Gold, Military, and Production.

 

[GT Ranma]

It might be, but I really think we(and by we, I mean you) should do what Hydro or Strategy said and do the changes in pieces, over time. We should plan it all out now, so we get a general consensus for the changes, but implement it one piece at a time as to give the coders better time to balance it with the AI.

Sorry if I feel pushy or what not, but I am a Producer, so I do this all the time.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I was going off the "definition" of the civic. Democracy is where the citizens vote on key issues, and republic is where citizens vote for a leader, although in the real world they're reversed.

Yes I understand but there was a reason why Afforess named them that way. That's why the tech is named Democracy but the civic is named Republic. Both are linked but the names should be the other way. Possibly even naming the later one "Representative Democracy" if you want to get specific.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It is very likely that I will be adding a new civic when I get Sevo's Faces of God mod working. It is just to difficult to get it to work any other way in C2C. The new civic will be Religious World View and is about what your state religion views its purpose. Is the world a garden to be tended; are cities about the glorification of the divine; is the truth to be found through great art; or should all be converted by the use of the sword. That sort of civic set.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

It might be, but I really think we(and by we, I mean you) should do what Hydro or Strategy said and do the changes in pieces, over time. We should plan it all out now, so we get a general consensus for the changes,

Exactly what i was going to do. Will edit first post in a minute. And it's all right about you being "pushy" I think everyone does better when they're being pushed.

Yes I understand but there was a reason why Afforess named them that way. That's why the tech is named Democracy but the civic is named Republic. Both are linked but the names should be the other way. Possibly even naming the later one "Representative Democracy" if you want to get specific.

Okay, I'll change the names back with the next update.

It is very likely that I will be adding a new civic when I get Sevo's Faces of God mod working. It is just to difficult to get it to work any other way in C2C. The new civic will be Religious World View and is about what your state religion views its purpose. Is the world a garden to be tended; are cities about the glorification of the divine; is the truth to be found through great art; or should all be converted by the use of the sword. That sort of civic set.

Sounds good! However, what if you have Free Religion or State Atheism?

 

[GT Ranma]

Also, on the first post, before 'Changes', could you post the current Govt civic, and then under that the Proposed, so it would be easier for everyone to chime in on what you are planning without having to look over a few pages to figure out what is what? (This might bring up unique issues of people hopping in and putting their 2 cents in then jumping out. But it might make informed discussion about them easier. Also, depending on what your definition of 'Current Civics' is, I could make that list for you (as I have only the newest release running, not SVN currently), and you could just update it to what is on the SVN. Then proposed would be what we are currently hammering out?)

Edit: Hmm, I guess I should be more specific. Since we are working on balance too, well, you guys are. I feel that the current bonuses and disadvantages of each civic should be under the name. This way it will be easier for you guys to argue about balance. Again, I can write up that list with release stats, I suppose I could update the SVN and do it from that. But I'm not sure we've reached a consensus on everything that has been added to the SVN, as I don't know what has been added