C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Praetyre]

Republic seems to refer to archaic forms of democratic government featuring a limited franchise or other distinguishing culture features from post Enlightenment societies, such as he Athenian and Roman republics.

 

[GT Ranma]

America is a Republic.

First line of Wiki's entry for America: "The United States of America (commonly called the United States, the U.S., the USA, America, and the States) is a federal constitutional republic consisting of fifty states and a federal district."

So, in C2C terms, if we were set up 'cannon', America would be a:
Government: Federal
Power: Republic (Or Democracy, both are correct)
Politics: Constitutionalism

 

[Praetyre]

It would be Federal, yes, but due to it's highly modern democratic stylings and the way it's particular government form has evolved to greatly expand the role and power of the President beyond even other strong-executive nations like France, it would be Executive. It's Politics are also clearly Globalist- globalism is manufactured in America and exported through Europe and other first world nations. America is very far from being strongly adherent to it's constitution, as any Guantuanamo inmate or a certain congressman from Texas could tell you.

 

[GT Ranma]

That is really why I am wondering what direction they want to go with this. As you could argue a lot of things. For example, Globalism is a direction in which the economy of a country, mainly in form of corporations, can move in creating an international social and economic system.
It is not a Political System.
And Executive is not a political system, it is the part of the government that executes the law. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Executive+Branch?fromAsk=true)

Any clarification on where you guys are going with this system? If you guys don't really care about realism, that's fine, I'll be quite. But if the categories are defined differently then I think they are defined, then that's cool too. But 'Politics' to me means the political system they are using, not the direction they are taking in global politics. Because, in my opinion, if that was the case they would be more like 'Isolationist', 'Expansionist', 'Globalist', ect ect.

Through out history nations have taken a different out look on the way their countries interacted with others, which would be cool to have, but I am confused by the grouping of some of the systems. So if someone from C2C could clarify what they are going for and heading towards, I would appreciate it. That way I won't waste your time with suggestions that don't fit in with what you guys are going for.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

That is really why I am wondering what direction they want to go with this. As you could argue a lot of things. For example, Globalism is a direction in which the economy of a country, mainly in form of corporations, can move in creating an international social and economic system.
It is not a Political System.
And Executive is not a political system, it is the part of the government that executes the law. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Executive+Branch?fromAsk=true)

Any clarification on where you guys are going with this system? If you guys don't really care about realism, that's fine, I'll be quite. But if the categories are defined differently then I think they are defined, then that's cool too. But 'Politics' to me means the political system they are using, not the direction they are taking in global politics. Because, in my opinion, if that was the case they would be more like 'Isolationist', 'Expansionist', 'Globalist', ect ect.

Through out history nations have taken a different out look on the way their countries interacted with others, which would be cool to have, but I am confused by the grouping of some of the systems. So if someone from C2C could clarify what they are going for and heading towards, I would appreciate it. That way I won't waste your time with suggestions that don't fit in with what you guys are going for.

Hmm...You have some good points in here. It almost makes me want to redo the entire civics, heh. But let me get back to you on this issue. I'm working on the new Labor civics, and don't really want to add on work.

 

[LumenAngel]

it s maybe more about better naming...
yes, Republic refer to old roman/greek republic, not the modern ones (just look the special building).
Executive here is more about if it's a strong executive (like France or USA) or not.

But 'Politics' to me means the political system they are using, not the direction they are taking in global politics. Because, in my opinion, if that was the case they would be more like 'Isolationist', 'Expansionist', 'Globalist', ect ect.

Not false, too. But what you are talking about is more the "how the player plays", Politics here is more "Politcs system"

 

[GT Ranma]

it s maybe more about better naming...
yes, Republic refer to old roman/greek republic, not the modern ones (just look the special building).

That is a common misconception, if you want, you can look at both of the definitions, but a person on Answers.com sums it up best.
""Democracy" and "republic" are not mutually exclusive, but not identical either. Democracy means "rule by the people" while republic means "rule by elected officials" (as opposed to hereditary rulers). All republics are democracies, but not all democracies are republics (a "direct democracy" is not). "
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy

@CIV:
Hmmm, I really want to create a list of all of the current ones and the definitions of them. It might be easier to get the whole picture with a document detailing the current ones you have. (You wouldn't happen to already have a list would you?)

 

[Randomness]

You should be careful of trying to make the civic system "realistic". Politics is far too complicated for a system as simple as the civic system. Also, it is difficult to really define what the civics represent IRL. For certain categories (such as economy, power, or government) a real government can either change directly, or at least can heavily influence. Other categories (society being the most obvious example) would be almost impossible to change. I am not apposed to attempting some accuracy in the civic system, but trying to line up real countries to civic is really messy.

Also, IRL, we have many systems which have very similar characteristics. Trying to model this in the civic system will result in many civics which are very similar. Our current system suffers from this a little bit and I do not want it to go further in this direction. Basically, I think that the civic system should be built to enhance various play styles and create interesting game play decision first, then, if possible, simulate real politics.

 

[GT Ranma]

Also, IRL, we have many systems which have very similar characteristics. Trying to model this in the civic system will result in many civics which are very similar. Our current system suffers from this a little bit and I do not want it to go further in this direction.

*rubs chin* Hmm, I know what you are talking about, but the issue I am having with the current system is not how CIV has it set up, but in the fact that some of the current systems he has in place are miss-represented. Not that they are 'to close' to a different one or what not.

Basically, I think that the civic system should be built to enhance various play styles and create interesting game play decision first, then, if possible, simulate real politics.

I completely agree with this statement.

That is not what I wish to change, as someone who is into politics and history, I would just like the ones he has (and his future direction) to be historically accurate where-in they are in the correct 'categories', not that they apply a quasi-realistic (as there is no actual realism in this game) modifier to your country.

What each civic does I am not worrying, or commenting upon. I really like where they are going with the civics, I like the idea of being able to pick and choose various government aspects that slightly change depending upon the playing style you are going for. I'm all for the direction they are heading in.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Okay, I have thought about this, and I like this idea, Mr. Hoskuld. Civics such as Liberalism and Egalitarian will reduce its effect, while Totalitarianism, Caste, and Serfdom increase its effects...

Oh OK, I thought that my idea had been rejected, luckily I had not yet gotten round to changing all the slavery mechanics, I should have a new captive mechanic available shortly where the chance of capturing a military unit or taking civilians captive will depend on

• your civic
• the civic of the defeated player
• barbarians always have a higher chance of being captured.

I am also changing what you can do with captives of various types.

 

[LumenAngel]

I should have a new captive mechanic available shortly where the chance of capturing a military unit or taking civilians captive will depend on

• your civic
• the civic of the defeated player
• barbarians always have a higher chance of being captured.

Yes, I hink I will love this ^^
Maybe some promotion too? Like a "slaver" +15% chance to capture ennemy units, +5% to subdue animals". The "slave" promotion can increase chance to be captured while the "Fanatic" decrease chance to be captured

 

[Randomness]

What happens if I recapture my own units? Do they still become slaves?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What happens if I recapture my own units? Do they still become slaves?

At the moment yes. I can almost see how to implement that when you capture any captured unit it reverts back to the type of unit it was just not very healthy and without any promotions at the moment.

Only getting your own is more complicated - to work properly I would need to either duplicate the captive for every civ in the game or store information about the units somewhere. The latter is probably the best but given how seriously I broke stuff last time I really need to study up on how that is done.

I want the ability to trade back prisoners of war after the war is over. It would be nice that when you got your unit back it still had all its promotions with maybe something from its experience as a prisoner.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

@CIV:
Hmmm, I really want to create a list of all of the current ones and the definitions of them. It might be easier to get the whole picture with a document detailing the current ones you have. (You wouldn't happen to already have a list would you?)

No, I don't have a list, but i will create such a list tommorow. And like Randomess said, my first goal is to create balance and fun with the civics, then realism.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

Okay, I have another restructuring for civics planned. So, I'm going to hold off on adding labor civics. I won't release any updates for awhile, but when I finally do, it's gonna beBIG.
Here is the new civic categories I have planned:
-Government (Style of government you have) Ex: Despotism, Monarchy, Democracy
-Rule (How you rule the population of the country) Ex: Magistrates, Bureaucracy, Federal
-Power (How power is divided in your government) Ex: Junta, Sovereignty, Tribune, Single Party
-Politics (Stance your government takes among others) Ex: Expansionist, Imperialist, Globalism
-Society (How society is structured) Ex: Tribalism, Marxism, Feudal
-Economy (How economy runs/restrictions on economy) Ex: Mercantilism, Free Market, Green
-Labor (How the work force operates) Ex: Serf Labor, Professional Labor, Post-Labor
-Religion (The governments stance on Faith in your country) Ex: State Church, Free Religion, State Atheism
-Military (How soldiers are conscripted) Ex: Militia, Volunteer Army, Conscription
-Welfare (How the lower class in your nation receives help) Ex: Church, Charity, Socialism
-Education (How the populace is educated) Ex: Compulsory Education, Socialized Education, Mind Control
-Health-Care (How your people receive health benefits) Ex: Herbalism, Church Care, Socialized Health Care
-Borders (How the nation regards its borders and immigration) Ex: Open Borders, Closed Borders, Secure Borders
-Agriculture (Who controls the farms in your nation) Ex: Privatized Agriculture, No Agriculture, State Agriculture
-Garbage (How the nation deals with its garbage) Ex: Landfills, Waste Importation
-Currency (Form of currency your country uses) Ex: Gold Standard, Bank Note, Coinage
-Language (How your citizens talk with each other/other countries) Ex: Native Language, Interpreters
-Justice (How the nation deals with crime) Ex: Common Law, Vigilantism
-Housing (Where do your people sleep at night?) Ex: No Housing, Fiefdom, State Housing
-Energy (When electricity is discovered, how do the people get electricity?) Ex: Public Energy, Private Energy

I must say, I'm getting excited just thinking about this. (Yes, Afforess' civic ideas gave me some inspiration) So guys, what do you think? I plan on designing all the civics from the ground up, and releasing it all in a big update.

 

[GT Ranma]

Very cool, I definitely like where you are going with this.

BTW, just idle curiosity, but would it be possible to 'upgrade' a civic as the civilization advances technologically wise? Or would you add in the civic unique upgrades (from technology) just as special buildings that they have access to?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

What's the difference between Welfare and Health-Care civics?

I am glad though that you are taking inspiration from Afforess' civics. They are where I have been trying to get the mod to go from the beginning with my Agriculture, Eduction, Immigration and Garbage civics.

If you notice the civics in his model are actually "departments", such as Executive Department, Legislative Department, Department of Commerce, Department of Defense, Department of Education and so on. Something to think about.

 

[ls612]

@CivPlayer8:

I'd be slightly weary of doing a major overhaul of the civics, as every time we do that there are a lot of balance issues that need fixing and AI bugs. Koshling spent a lot of time making the AI understand these civics.

 

[strategyonly]

@CivPlayer8:

I'd be slightly weary of doing a major overhaul of the civics, as every time we do that there are a lot of balance issues that need fixing and AI bugs. Koshling spent a lot of time making the AI understand these civics.

One other thing, lets keep all the "church" stuff in the same civic not be spreading things out so much. Just like Military, if you have that as a Civic, then lets keep all the units that you want associated with it in that main Civic, unless the unit is Specialized. I hope you can understand what i just wrote, i am one of those fuzzy moods again.

As above make sure you talk to Koshling about this NEW stuff, and again many many thx. Civic's area is a great part of C2C now

 

[CIVPlayer8]

BTW, just idle curiosity, but would it be possible to 'upgrade' a civic as the civilization advances technologically wise? Or would you add in the civic unique upgrades (from technology) just as special buildings that they have access to?

That's what I've spent a lot of time thinking myself. I'm trying to think of ways for Digital Democracy to just be an upgraded version of Democracy, and Absolute Monarchy for Monarchy. However, I think I can solve this by just having a combination of civics. For example, Monarchy + Divine Right/Sovereignty = Absolute Monarch. Or Despotism + State Surveillance + Martial Law = Totalitarianism. It is because of this, that I'm cutting a few civics.

What's the difference between Welfare and Health-Care civics?

I am glad though that you are taking inspiration from Afforess' civics. They are where I have been trying to get the mod to go from the beginning with my Agriculture, Eduction, Immigration and Garbage civics.

If you notice the civics in his model are actually "departments", such as Executive Department, Legislative Department, Department of Commerce, Department of Defense, Department of Education and so on. Something to think about.

Welfare is giving aid to the lower class of the country, health care is how anyone can obtain health service. And yes, I will use a lot of his ideas for the new civic categories I'm adding. However, I'm not a fan of the "Department of" name. it just seems too modern of a concept.

I'd be slightly weary of doing a major overhaul of the civics, as every time we do that there are a lot of balance issues that need fixing and AI bugs. Koshling spent a lot of time making the AI understand these civics.

Would it help if I were to add "AIWeight" to the civics?

One other thing, lets keep all the "church" stuff in the same civic not be spreading things out so much. Just like Military, if you have that as a Civic, then lets keep all the units that you want associated with it in that main Civic, unless the unit is Specialized. I hope you can understand what i just wrote, i am one of those fuzzy moods again.

What do you mean by Church stuff? C2C currently has "Religious Education" and "Church Welfare", do you not like these?