C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[GT Ranma]

*rubs chin* Sooo... does 125% mean 125% MORE, or 25% more?
200% would equal 3x times...

Well, all I can say is lets throw them in and see what explodes? Since it is an on going project, I think we can get away with saying 'We are tweaking them, so don't expect them to be right just yet."
Of course, I would also say don't change make huge changes until after the 'release', we should definitely test them all before any changes goes into a release, as that is what people will expect to be a balanced and playable build.

Edit: Speaking of crime, does anyone know the crime to population equation?

 

[ls612]

@CivPlayer8:

8 national instability -> 10
7 local instability -> 13
235 Distance maintenance -> 400
280 # of cities maintenance -> 500

That sounds like a tad much, if only for the reason that the we don't want to gimp prehistoric advancement more. It is already a slow of enough start. If it were up to me I'd leave the national instability, change it to 10 local instability, 300 distance maintenance, and 350 # of cities maintenance. Otherwise we may have problems with too little gold early game, as the only source of money then is goody huts.

 

[BlueGenie]

@ls612: Oh. I didn't even think of that as a source of gold. I play with Goody Huts Off so possibly if you all are counting on them to give a little extra you'll need to reconsider some changes so that those that play with them off can manage economically during that time too.

@CivPlayer8: I had no idea that anyone even though Democracy was an upgraded version of Republic. AFAIK Democracy in it's earliest forms came before any Republic.
Classic examples of Democracy and Republic would be Ancient Greece as Democracy and Roman Empire as Republic. I don't see how they are similar enough to be consider upgrade/downgrade in any way or form.
I think they should be different from each other in more ways, many way.

As for Theology I don't think anyone goes through the game without having a State Religion at some time or other, possibly going away from it in more modern times with Atheism or such. If going Theocracy would depend on whether or not getting any of those special buildings (most are wonders, right) that would give the increased income. Having something like that determine what Civic to use, eh, meh.

Too tired now to write anything meaningful.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

Anarchism: 200% Distance, 300% # of cities, 2 local instability, 4 national instability

Do you not realize that for this Civic distance and # of Cities is meaningless. It's only used from Game start to Chiefdom which comes right after Tribalism. At Tribalism you start to build your 2nd City (only If you have captured a Barb city or a Neighboring AI's capital will you have more than 1 city at this time). Therefore they (distance and # of Cities penalties) are irrelevant.

For the most part Anarchism is Just a Placeholder Civic and does not really need anything in it (unless you Want your Capital City to Revolt before you can have any other City thru REV ). If you are not using REV it's a Placeholder period! And Might as well be empty.

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

Actually Joseph you can get more cities before getting to Tribalism and Chiefdom by conquest, so it is not quite meaningless to have Distance and # cost increase, and certainly not irrelevant.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

@BG,
To quote myself (because I made that point too):

<snip>(only If you have captured a Barb city or a Neighboring AI's capital will you have more than 1 city at this time). Therefore they (distance and # of Cities penalties) are irrelevant.

For the most part Anarchism is Just a Placeholder Civic and does not really need anything in it (unless you Want your Capital City to Revolt before you can have any other City thru REV ). If you are not using REV it's a Placeholder period! And Might as well be empty.

JosEPh

So only in a Map Filled with AI or Barb Cities will it be relevant. And That is the eXception and not the rule.

Splitting hairs BG?

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

For me having AI players around is more a rule than an exception. *grin* I quite often take a look at any nearby AI's cities to see if I'd be interested in taking them over. As for Barb Cities, they aren't growing now anyway so can't take them over.

I must admit I actually missed that part you write in parenthesis.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The first civic of every category is supposed to be very bad and not used after you can get any other. This is standard BtS. Having said that it should not be so bad that the barbarian cities don't grow.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The first civic of every category is supposed to be very bad and not used after you can get any other. This is standard BtS. Having said that it should not be so bad that the barbarian cities don't grow.

Agreed.

Barb World is almost useless now as all the Barb cities don't grow and become easy pickin'. Ruins the whole idea for Barb World.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I wouldn't think initial civics should be bad per se, so much as completely useless.

 

[strategyonly]

The first civic of every category is supposed to be very bad and not used after you can get any other. This is standard BtS. Having said that it should not be so bad that the barbarian cities don't grow.

Agreed.

Barb World is almost useless now as all the Barb cities don't grow and become easy pickin'. Ruins the whole idea for Barb World.

JosEPh

Something is making the POP not go up lately, (it was working a month ago) I thought DH mentioned why, can you pls get with CivPlay8 and see if he can make changes if that is the reason, thx.

EDIT: I really cant release another version until the POP stuff is resolved.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The problem with the upkeep cost is that it doesn't allow me to change the cost of the civics enough. There are only 4 categories, Low, Medium, High, and Extreme. There are so many civics in this mod, I need to make them stand out from each other more. I hear you though, I do have + or - maintenance in some places where perhaps it doesn't belong. Garbage comes to mind. I will go back and try to reduce some of the excess maintenance, though. As for the Welfare, yes. They should decrease the disease rate, and maybe even the crime rate, based on your civic. And about the currency, I think it is, for the most part, balanced. Some options that might be terrible in one game might be decent in another.

The Upkeep for the Garbage Civics should be ...

- Garbage Anywhere = No Upkeep
- Waste to Sea = No Upkeep
- Landfills = Low Upkeep
- Waste Exportation = High Upkeep
- Waste Importation = No Upkeep
- Off-Planet Dumping = Astronomical Upkeep
- Waste to Energy = Medium Upkeep

Please fixed them to how they originally were intended to be.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Someone needs to write a New Barb code that removes all the and that the Player and Regular AI Civs have to deal with at Game Start.

Quite frankly I find it ridiculous for even Player and Reg AI Civ to have to deal with this extra heavy load in a 1 pop starting city. It needs to be pushed back to when the City reaches at least size 3 before all this is dumped in.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Penalties to great person points are currently too severe. That could be either just that there are too many that are too big, or it could be a calculation method thing.

Anyway - barbaric leader trait is -50%. Caste is -50%. Have those two together and they alone prevent ALL great person production. IMO this needs to be toned down. Probably the leader trait is the more over-the-top of the two, but -50% is a huge modifier even on a civic. I'd say reduce the leader penalty to -25% and the civic to -40% myself.

 

[ls612]

Penalties to great person points are currently too severe. That could be either just that there are too many that are too big, or it could be a calculation method thing.

Anyway - barbaric leader trait is -50%. Caste is -50%. Have those two together and they alone prevent ALL great person production. IMO this needs to be toned down. Probably the leader trait is the more over-the-top of the two, but -50% is a huge modifier even on a civic. I'd say reduce the leader penalty to -25% and the civic to -40% myself.

I agree. None of these percentage penalties for anything should be above 25%.

 

[JosEPh_II]

+1

And also all the WW (War Weariness) with right Civics can add up to more than 100%. Didn't we learn anything from v16 when we over did WW? No WW should be more than 25% or -25%.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

+1

And also all the WW (War Weariness) with right Civics can add up to more than 100%. Didn't we learn anything from v16 when we over did WW? No WW should be more than 25% or -25%.

JosEPh

I am not sure how many of them were around for C2C v16.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Not very many obviously. That's why we keep reinventing the Wheel o' Civics. :/

JosEPh

 

[GT Ranma]

I am on board with the 'nothing over 25%' rule. Maybe, in an extreme case, a little over.

But it goes back to balance, if it is balanced right, we don't need huge bonuses and huge disadvantages. The civics should be coloring game play, not defining it.

 

[strategyonly]

I am on board with the 'nothing over 25%' rule. Maybe, in an extreme case, a little over.

But it goes back to balance, if it is balanced right, we don't need huge bonuses and huge disadvantages. The civics should be coloring game play, not defining it.

The best darn statement on Civics yet, nice!!