C2C - Civics Discussion Thread
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Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Well if you wanted synergy what you could do is like the existing auto-build civic buildings. Instead of being triggered by 1 civic to be active like we have now you could have ones that require 2 or more civics to be active to trigger.
This could bring additional bonuses or malaces to having different combinations of civics active at the same time. For instance maybe having a Theocracy and Divine Right and Religious Training civics all at the same time, could give some sort of uber religious bonus.
This could bring additional bonuses or malaces to having different combinations of civics active at the same time. For instance maybe having a Theocracy and Divine Right and Religious Training civics all at the same time, could give some sort of uber religious bonus.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The problem with the auto build civic based buildings is that the information is not displayed as part of the civic change screen so you don't know the full effect of the change.
LumenAngel
King
Guild + some civics can give some nice new Guilds (Thieves Guild, Mercenaries Guild, Farmers Guild...)
Theocracy can give some bonuses for atheist building (for an atheism + theocracy combo)
Theocracy can give some bonuses for atheist building (for an atheism + theocracy combo)
CIVPlayer8
Prince
So recently, I have been brainstorming what I'd like to do with civics (probably not official, just probably a modmod again). My first intention was to make them all simpler, with most only giving 1-3 benefits. My second was to diversify their effects. I felt like before, too many civics just gave a +
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%, and that is too bland, IMO. Well anyways, this is just my first blueprint, and I'll go from there, take a look if you'd like. 
///// %, and that is too bland, IMO. Well anyways, this is just my first blueprint, and I'll go from there, take a look if you'd like. Spoiler :
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
have you considered a spreadsheet for planning? makes it much more easy to see
Any reason why Matriarchy and Patriarchy don't require the techs with the same name as they do now?
Why do grow closed borders faster then open boarders?
Not sure about the health from green agriculture, I'd go with less pollution.
Also, i'd like to see some futer forms of government like a cyber democracy (which would be in fact a direct democracy) or that you just have polls like "should the new Wind park produce 1 MW or 2 MW?" that everyone could directly vote for.
Society could deal with clones and/or robots as well. Might make some good ordiences as well (robot rights etc).
A post-capitalism economy would be good. were money isn't an issue, it just don't exist. You get what you need for free: clothes, accomodation, food, water, but also some "luxuries" like wine or so, but if you want more more unnecessary stuff (like jewelry) you can earn "points" by contributing knowledge or new designed clothes or whatever to the society.
Military could use a "defense only" option. Like pacifism, but with less bonus, fewer upkeep, but massivemalus for offense units and a boost for defense units.
Currency could also use a post-money civic.
Justice could have a Minority Report like "pre crime justice".
Garbage could have a "recycling" (like now) and a "fully degenerable" or "Biomaterial" (no more plastic but bio materials like agarose that can just rot away in a few days) civic. Or a "Complete Recycling" where literally everything is recycled.
Any reason why Matriarchy and Patriarchy don't require the techs with the same name as they do now?
Why do grow closed borders faster then open boarders?
Not sure about the health from green agriculture, I'd go with less pollution.
Also, i'd like to see some futer forms of government like a cyber democracy (which would be in fact a direct democracy) or that you just have polls like "should the new Wind park produce 1 MW or 2 MW?" that everyone could directly vote for.
Society could deal with clones and/or robots as well. Might make some good ordiences as well (robot rights etc).
A post-capitalism economy would be good. were money isn't an issue, it just don't exist. You get what you need for free: clothes, accomodation, food, water, but also some "luxuries" like wine or so, but if you want more more unnecessary stuff (like jewelry) you can earn "points" by contributing knowledge or new designed clothes or whatever to the society.
Military could use a "defense only" option. Like pacifism, but with less bonus, fewer upkeep, but massivemalus for offense units and a boost for defense units.
Currency could also use a post-money civic.
Justice could have a Minority Report like "pre crime justice".
Garbage could have a "recycling" (like now) and a "fully degenerable" or "Biomaterial" (no more plastic but bio materials like agarose that can just rot away in a few days) civic. Or a "Complete Recycling" where literally everything is recycled.
So recently, I have been brainstorming what I'd like to do with civics (probably not official, just probably a modmod again). My first intention was to make them all simpler, with most only giving 1-3 benefits. My second was to diversify their effects. I felt like before, too many civics just gave a +
I support this.
What I'd suggest is to give a more specific feeling to each of the civic category - for example, right now, you may have bonus prod from your state religion from civics in multiple categories, same with bonus
etc. Each category would focus its effect in one area (though there might be some side effect also occasionnally).This would help "sorting out" all options available.
For example :
Government | Basic form of government you have | Global happiness
Rule | How your people are governed | How many/how far cities you may sustain
Administration | Whose interests the government serves | Specialists (#free, bonus...), workers
Society | How society is structured |
(bonus from buildings, improvements...)Economy | Basic makeup of economy | Trade route effects
Religion | Civilizations view on religion | (State) religion benefits/malus
Military | How your empire recruits soldiers | Unit costs, supply cost, experience, war weariness
Currency | What your currency is/backed by |
(bonus from buildings, improvements...)Education | Who teaches who in society | Education (generation and effects),
Training | What the youth are taught |
(bonus from buildings, improvements...)Labor | How the workforce is organized |
(bonus from buildings, improvements...)Immigration | Stance on immigration/emigration | Number of trade routes ?
Agriculture | How agricultural sector is organized |
(bonus from buildings, improvements...)Utility | Who owns the water/power supply | Public works buildings
Welfare | How the needy receive help in society |
, diseases (bonus from buildings, improvements...)Property | Who owns the land in society | Terrain improvements bonus/malus
Justice | How justice is dealt in society | Crime
Language | How the people communicate with each other | Diplomatic options and relationships,
Garbage | How trash is disposed of in society | Pollution and
From there, each civic would give a different "flavor" suited to different playstyles/objectives. A new civic would not necessarily be better than the former (though a slow improvement across time is conceivable), but be better suited for a specific purpose.
For example (values/effects only for illustrative purpose, this is likely not balanced) :
per pop | per number of cities | Other effectsAnarchism | +2 per pop | | Each crime building adds +1
; 0 turn of revolutionChiefdom | +1 (1-6 pop), +2 (7-12), +3 (12+) | +2 past first 3 cities
Despotism | +1 per pop | +1 past first 3 cities | +3
in each city ; each garrisoned unit lowers by 1 (doubled for police units)Absolute Monarchy | +2 per pop | +1 past first 6 cities | No
in capitalDirect Democracy | | +3 (reduced by 1 with tech X, by 1 more with tech Y) |
Republic | +1 per pop | +2 | Each garrisoned unit increases
by 1Constitutional Monarchy | +2 per pop | +1 past first 12 cities |
Representative Democracy | | +2 past first 6 cities |
Fascist | +1 per pop | +1 past first 12 cities | +3
in each city ; each garrisoned unit lowers by 1 (doubled for police units)This means that if you're a large empire, you'll likely use Despotism or Absolute Monarchy; if you have a limited number of large cities, Direct Democracy or Republic is likely better (unless you're very military oriented for the latter); if crime is rampant, Anarchism might even be an option to consider, etc.
Some of the latest civics will usually be more interesting, but one may find interest in the first one depending on the situation.
Likewise, Rule would give different
maintenance cost to give different viable options for small, large or populous options, Administration would give you either free specialists or increase the effect of one or more specific specialists, Economy would give you different benefits from trade routes, etc.Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
you have is just boring. also I don't understand why you would run Despotism in big empires 
Because of the Garrison ?Actually, the more I think about it, the better it seems
As long as there are variations in a category that is bigger then just "+1 from civic A, +1 from civic B" it is a cool concept.Currency for example could have civics that favour certain buildings OR improvements OR trade routes OR resources etc. So that when you have a lot of resources you'd have another civic then when you focus on mines or cottages or something. And it would reduce the things a civic would give as intended. Cool idea RWN
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
This is wrong:
A Republic does Not generate citizen anger over garrisoned Military. This is an old RoM hangover.
In fact the opposite is true. Republics historically have relied upon a Strong Military presence.
JosEPh
Code:
Republic +1 per pop +2 Each garrisoned unit increases by 1A Republic does Not generate citizen anger over garrisoned Military. This is an old RoM hangover.
In fact the opposite is true. Republics historically have relied upon a Strong Military presence.
JosEPh
also I don't understand why you would run Despotism in big empires
Yeah, as stated, this was only for illustrative purposes, I'm sure there are more historically realist combinations and I don't mind if what I wrote for Republic is switched with another
My point was just to present how different civics with relatively subtle differences (to allow a quick comparison between each) can be use to support widely different playstyles - for example large empire vs. small empire, lots of specialists vs. few but more powerful ones, buildings construction vs. units construction, etc.
If I get a bit more into details in what I had in mind when suggesting the above values for Government:
- Anarchy is the one you start with, has quite a strong penalty (maybe 2 per pop is not enough) so you'll probably want to change at some point. Still, in the early game where you have only low population cities it's not too much of a disturbance, so staying in anarchy for a bit is a viable strategy instead of switching at the first opportunity. Finally, the bonus from crime and the lack of penalty for number of civs makes it potentially useful much later in the game in "creative" alternative strategies involving lots of undeveloped small cities...
- Chiefdom alleviates the penalty from Anarchy to grow with only 1 per pop for small cities; however, you have the same (or worse) penalty in larger cities or if you start to expand. This would make it a good option in the early game, especially if you're not spreading too much; past 5-6 cities, the city penalty will likely offset the lower from pop compared to Anarchy.
- Despotism is a good pick if at any point you have difficuties in managing : just build units and you're fine (note: this would probably be unbalanced with SizeMatters ; the bonus could be granted only by Company units or more) if you can afford the cost. If you're more into "light city defenses", the base will likely offset the bonus compared to earlier civics. Still, the reduction from units make this civic potentially useful at any point in the game.
- Absolute monarchy : Good if you focus on expansion and/or developing your capital city. The from pop makes it bad if your non-capital cities start to grow, though.
- Direct democracy: The opposite from Absolute monarchy. If you focus on a limited number of cities, this civic will make happiness management a breeze. Only in the late game, the lower penalty will allow you to expand. (after some thought, it might be a bit too good in the late game, maybe the from garrisoned unit from Republic should be there instead). A side-bonus in could make this civic a tool for smaller civs to stay in the tech race despite having less cities.
- Republic: A lighter version of Direct democracy if you want a bit more than a few cities. The from garrisoned units makes it unfit in wartime (but it might be a too strong penalty, realism issues aside). The same kind of bonus could be relevant here also, as long as the penalty is significant enough that large empires won't be able to take advantage of it.
- Constitutional monarchy: An advanced version of the Absolute Monarchy for very expansionists strategies. There's no bonus for capital in this one, though, so, combined with the significant penalty per pop, your capital should be well equiped in happiness buildings.
- Representative democracy: A bit light Republic, a less punitive version of Direct democracy. A bit unoriginal, there's surely something better to imagine...
- Fascism: A sort of combination of Despotism (for the hapiness management through units) and Monarchy (for allowing large empires). Probably needs to be made a bit more original also.
Other ideas that could be factored in: bonus/malus happiness for certain buildings (enforcing some warmongering governments and other more peacefully-oriented ones) or resources, special actions (such as dance/songs from entertainers)... as long as we keep a coherent and easy to grasp philosophy to each government.
To be honest, I'm not myself satisfied with what I wrote above (impact of empire size could be addressed either in Government through happiness or in Rule through maintenance cost, but both is probably redundant; a bit more thought in each field would be good), but that's the kind of strategy that I'd be eager to see in civics - all about choices and enforcing a given playstyle.
Exactly! Glad you like it.
LumenAngel
King
My point about Military Civics after som fun with them
Milicia. basic and bad ^^
Banditry. Nice, but not "badass" enough. And only good early game. I think some change an be made for more fun with Banditry late game :
Conscription. Good in time of need, but why this cost? Conscription is just about drafting, so a Low Upkeep is maybe better.
Mercenaries. My main. Always. Why? Because too cheap. And no "mercenary enough". it costs less than Tribal Warfare!
Pacifism. I disagree with the unlimited artist. pacifism can be about science or construction, not only art. Actually, pacifisme is too much about Art...
Volunteer Army Just too strong. Even if you build military units slower, they are quite powerful, capture others easily and you have an increase GG emergence... Maybe increase th Upkeep. having this civics with the same Upkeep than Vassalage is strange.
Unmanned warfare. Good. its costs a lot, but worth it. nearly no chance to capture. Maybe a little +2 XP bonus fro Robots?
Cloning. Tried it a little. Go back to mercenaries. You produce a lot of bad units. But not enough to counter a civ producing less stronger units. At least you are hard to capture... having a high costs for a cloning civics look good.
A good thing would be a buildings buildable only by Heroes on this civics :
Hero genome I
Buildable onlt by Heroes.
Req mainstream Cloning, Cloning Civics
+4 XP for Clones units
Hero genome II
Buildable onlt by Heroes.
Req mainstream Cloning, Cloning Civics, Hero genome I
+3 XP for Clones units
Hero genome III
Buildable onlt by Heroes.
Req mainstream Cloning, Cloning Civics, Hero genome I
+2 XP for Clones units
Clones units gain "Heroes" Combat Class.
Yep, why dont clone our heroes after all?
Milicia. basic and bad ^^
Banditry. Nice, but not "badass" enough. And only good early game. I think some change an be made for more fun with Banditry late game :
- 50% faster training for Criminals Units (instead of just Thief, Rogue and Assassin) and +2 XP for Criminals Units
- Allow construction of Highwayman's Hideout, Pirate's Cove, Smuggler's Shanty
Conscription. Good in time of need, but why this cost? Conscription is just about drafting, so a Low Upkeep is maybe better.
Mercenaries. My main. Always. Why? Because too cheap. And no "mercenary enough". it costs less than Tribal Warfare!
- +3 support cost for military units (instead of +1)
- +1 :gold from Military Instructor, Great Military Instructor
- +1 from Barracks, Garrison, Stable, Knight Stable, Galditoral School, Archery Range, Military base, Combat Simulator, Holographic Combat Simulator, Helicopter training Center, Military Academy (I maybe forgot some, the idea is building training soldier)
Pacifism. I disagree with the unlimited artist. pacifism can be about science or construction, not only art. Actually, pacifisme is too much about Art...
- +3 Free Specialist (instead of Unlimited Artist)
- +5 % science, culture and production (instead of +15% culture)
- Remove the construction of Missile Lab....
Volunteer Army Just too strong. Even if you build military units slower, they are quite powerful, capture others easily and you have an increase GG emergence... Maybe increase th Upkeep. having this civics with the same Upkeep than Vassalage is strange.
Unmanned warfare. Good. its costs a lot, but worth it. nearly no chance to capture. Maybe a little +2 XP bonus fro Robots?
Cloning. Tried it a little. Go back to mercenaries. You produce a lot of bad units. But not enough to counter a civ producing less stronger units. At least you are hard to capture... having a high costs for a cloning civics look good.
A good thing would be a buildings buildable only by Heroes on this civics :
Hero genome I
Buildable onlt by Heroes.
Req mainstream Cloning, Cloning Civics
+4 XP for Clones units
Hero genome II
Buildable onlt by Heroes.
Req mainstream Cloning, Cloning Civics, Hero genome I
+3 XP for Clones units
Hero genome III
Buildable onlt by Heroes.
Req mainstream Cloning, Cloning Civics, Hero genome I
+2 XP for Clones units
Clones units gain "Heroes" Combat Class.
Yep, why dont clone our heroes after all?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
They should. If not they should be fixed.
EDIT: I just checked the code and they seem to ...
Code:
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_POWER</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_PATRIARCHY</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_PATRIARCHY</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_PATRIARCHY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_PATRIARCHY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/patriarchy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>TECH_PATRIARCHY</TechPrereq>
Code:
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_POWER</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_MATRIARCHY</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_MATRIARCHY</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_MATRIARCHY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_MATRIARCHY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/matriarchy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>TECH_MATRIARCHY</TechPrereq>EDIT2: Nevermind you were questioning CIVPlayer8's proposal.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
So recently, I have been brainstorming what I'd like to do with civics (probably not official, just probably a modmod again). My first intention was to make them all simpler, with most only giving 1-3 benefits. My second was to diversify their effects. I felt like before, too many civics just gave a +
I am all for simplifying the civics. I mostly choose them for their name these days and don't worry about what they do
.
LumenAngel
King
About this, I often choose some civics for their unique building (Feodalism or Guilds-related civs are a good example). Buildings give a true flavour to many civics.
To make them more "diffrent", maybe more bonus/malus for some specialists? Gold bonus for Great Military Instructor in mercenary, Espionnage bonus for Celebrity and Artist in Propaganda, culture bonus for priest in Religious Education, or for Military Instructor in Military Instruction, malus for Noble in Proletariat or for Priest in Atheism...
To make them more "diffrent", maybe more bonus/malus for some specialists? Gold bonus for Great Military Instructor in mercenary, Espionnage bonus for Celebrity and Artist in Propaganda, culture bonus for priest in Religious Education, or for Military Instructor in Military Instruction, malus for Noble in Proletariat or for Priest in Atheism...
The problem with unique buildings is that it's not easy figuring out what they do beforehand: basically you have to remember each building and look for them in the civopedia - there are some links in the civics screen but they don't seem to work and that's not very practical anyway...
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I am all for simplifying the civics. I mostly choose them for their name these days and don't worry about what they do
I am quite the opposite, i rely on these quite a bit actually, i really pick and choose these, and later after Ren Era, you need to pay close attention or lose your money and more important your Cities.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
OK if the Civics guy ever comes back we needs MORE of them because when i get to the Industrial Era (see pics) there are very few to change?? plus there are more era's left, Modern, TransHuman, Galactic and then finally Future and nothing to change in Civics then?? Couldnt get them all here, but you have the idea.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Can we please fix the ridiculous 12-city limit on Monarchy (Government civic)? The Romans, the Russians and Kublai - to name a few - had nowhere near that much trouble keeping their empires together. Back when there was no other unhappiness in the mod it might have been all very well, but it's totally and completely ludicrous now.
And then at Rep Dem (or in my case Fascism)... it all just goes away. For some reason city limits by Government civic become a thing of the past.
Before Fascism, I was having to constantly build and transport all available food traders to keep a dozen of my recently-conquered cities from starving (some cities had over 50 surplus red faces, not long ago at least one had 100
). Now with Fascism, there is not a single unhappy citizen to be seen! With Fascism of all techs (although even with 'democracy' it would be crazy)!!!??? I'm sorry but it's bogus!!!
The limit on Monarchy should be not less than 40. For gameplay purposes (ie. to give players a genuine choice even with largeish empires) the limits on Republic and Theocracy should also be increased nearly as much.
Limits should be newly imposed on the Rep Dem and Fascism civics (by which of course I mean the civics in the Government category that are unlocked by those techs). For 'democracy' I suggest around 50, for Fascism the same or maybe 45.
And then at Rep Dem (or in my case Fascism)... it all just goes away. For some reason city limits by Government civic become a thing of the past.
Before Fascism, I was having to constantly build and transport all available food traders to keep a dozen of my recently-conquered cities from starving (some cities had over 50 surplus red faces, not long ago at least one had 100
). Now with Fascism, there is not a single unhappy citizen to be seen! With Fascism of all techs (although even with 'democracy' it would be crazy)!!!??? I'm sorry but it's bogus!!!The limit on Monarchy should be not less than 40. For gameplay purposes (ie. to give players a genuine choice even with largeish empires) the limits on Republic and Theocracy should also be increased nearly as much.
Limits should be newly imposed on the Rep Dem and Fascism civics (by which of course I mean the civics in the Government category that are unlocked by those techs). For 'democracy' I suggest around 50, for Fascism the same or maybe 45.
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