C2C - Galactic Era

Azurian · Sep 8, 2013

removed

Faustmouse · Jul 5, 2014

[/COLOR]While not really in the "Galactic Era", but more in the "Solar Era", this thread seems to fit ok. If not,
I can make a new thread for it.

I spend this morning reading a lot about space colonization. It is something I really wanna see in this mod and I know a lot of people want that, too. Honestly, I think Hydro`s solution with Martian Wonders that all do the same is quitepoor, yet I understand that it is only there as a place holder. It could add a lot more immersion if we`d vary those wonders a bit more and make them building chains. The Martian wonders are a bit different since we also have martian terrain, so one day we will hopefully have cities there as well. I tried that for the lunar map, but a lack of
time, skill and motivation due low support has lowered my enthusiasm about that by a great deal. So I`d like to stick what I can: Making buildings.
I`d like to have some sort of colonies on different planets, and if we don`t have their terrains in game, then I think
just having buildings for them is somewhat "Ok".

First, I`d like to give an overview of locations suitable for colonization and their advantages/disadvantages.
After that, I`d like to go though them one by one and discuss (mainly with Hydro as our building-balance expert, but of
course also with others) how these keynotes can be adjusted in the civ-style.

A few things to start with:

Spoiler :

This said, here are our candidates:

Near Earth Orbit:

[*] Fast access, thus good as a prove of principle
[*] Easy construction in 0g
[*] Can generate 1 g through rotation if wanted.
[*] Loads of solar power

[*] No natural resources thus expensive to be build (everything has to be launched)
[*] No natural protection against radiation

--------------------------

Moon:

[*] Close; getting stuff from the Moon down to earth is easy
[*] A stepping stone for further missions due low launch costs
[*] No atmosphere and low gravity makes launching easy
[*] A lot of Iron, Titanium and Aluminium as well as silicates
[*] Water

[*] Very low amounts of H2, N2 or Carbon
[*] No concentrated ores
[*] Actually requires more fuel to get to then in getting to the mars
[*] Micro meteorids

Keep in mind we have lunar terrain so this will be implented differently!

-------------------------------

Mars:

[*] Water and CO2
[*] Has an atmosphere
[*] Concentrated ores possible
[*] Thin ahmosphere and low gravity allow for a space elevator even with todays materials
[*] From it`s moons, very very low amounts of fuel is needed to get into orbit (and from there to earth)

[*] Atmosphere very thin (0.8% of earths)
[*] Ground based Solar Power like on a cloudy day on earth
[*] Mars Dust is nasty
[*] Requires protection from radiation as well

Keep in mind we have lunar terrain so this will be implented differently!

---------------------------------

Venus:

[*]Almost 90% of earths gravity
[*] Closest planet to earth
[*] At ~50 km height, pressure is only a few bars and temperature is 0-50 C
[*] In this atmosphere, Air has 2/3 of the lifting power that He has on earth
[*] Water and O2 can be extracted from the atmosphere by chemical reaction
[*] Fast winds up there circle the planet every 4 earth days, much faster then a Venus day
[*] High pressure/temperature is useful for some chemical production chains

[*] Very hostile (high pressure and temperature, very acidic atmosphere)
[*] Almost no natural resources in 50 km height
[*] Getting stuff from the surface to only 50km height is somewhat challenging

---------------------------------

Mercury:

[*]Peaks of internal light possible - if not, they can be created
[*] 6.5 times higher solar constant for energy generation
[*] Similar to earths moon
[*] Lots of Magnesia and Iron Silicates, other precious metals in highly concentrated ores
[*] Possible to build solar sails there and send them with massdrivers to Venus to terraform it or supply it
[*] Most likely ice at poles, since there it is almost constantly around 0 C
[*] Probably He3 as well, but not sure since strong magnetic field
[*] No atmosphere

[*] VERY hard to get there (even requires much more energy then going to Neptune or beyond)
[*] It takes like 6 years to get there without having to spend insane amounts of fuel
[*] High radiation

-----------------------------------

Asteroid Belt, especially Ceres:

[*]Stepping stone to Jupiter and Saturn and their moons
[*] HIGH varity of valuable metals for huge economic gains
[*] Ceres has a lot of water that can be transported other colonies
[*] Transporting stuff from Mars to Ceres requires less energy then getting stuff from earth to the moon
[*] Low gravity and lack of atmosphere resulting in lower launch costs/space elevator
[*] Hollowed Asteroids offer a huge volume of habitable and protected space

[*] Solar Power only 1/4 to 1/6 as effective then on earth
[*] Low gravity
[*] High chance of collision with other things

-------------------------------------

Jovian System

[*]Mining Outer Atmosphere, specially for He3
[*] Interesting for studying the whole system due shorter signal delay
[*] Low yield of solar power, however, new energy harvesting methods can be used to harvest Io`s strong geological activity or Jupiter`s high wind speeds

[*] INSANE high radiation levels
[*] High gravity of Jupiter resulting in a high escape velocity

Europa:

[*]LOADS of Water, that can also be split down to Oxygen and Hydrogen
[*] Close to Jupiter for scientific purposes

[*] Low temperature (-170 C)
[*] HIGH radiation, so shielding (maybe below the ice sheet) is required

Castillo:

[*]Due larger distance to Jupiter lower radiation levels
[*] Contains Water, CO2 and Nitrogen
[*] Can be used to produce Rocket fuel for further exploration of the outer solar system

Ganymed would be an option as well but it is not well studied and rather boring
Io is so close to Jupiter that it gets totally sick doses of radiation.

---------------------------------------

Saturnian System:

[*]Rich of Deuterium and HE3 (both used for fusion)
[*] Lower radiation then Jupiter

[*] Even lower solar yield
[*] Distance to earth resulting in long fly times and signal delay

Titan:

[*]Thick Atmosphere, containing Water, CO2, Methane and Nitrogen-compounds
[*] Thick Atmosphere + low gravity are ideal for flying vehicles
[*] Atmosphere rich of liquid Hydrocarbons, possible for power generation

-----------------------------------------

Uranus:

[*]Lowest escape velocity of the 4 gas giants
[*] Also high amount of He 3
[*] Several moons which can be used as human base if supervision of robotic miners is needed
[*] Floating cities possible since at 1 bar pressure the gravity is 90% of earths

[*] FAR out, loads of Energy needed to reach
[*] Long travel time to get there
[*] Long signal delay

------------------

Neptune:

[*]FAR out, loads of Energy needed to reach
[*] Long travel time to get there
[*] Long signal delay

Triton

[*]Geological active
[*] Harvest geothermal energy might be feasible

Now the fun part: Making buildings with these informations :crazyeye:

Harrier · Jul 5, 2014

Faustmouse said:
I tried that for the lunar map, but a lack of
time, skill and motivation due low support has lowered my enthusiasm about that by a great deal. So I`d like to stick what I can: Making buildings.

I do not think the support is low for a lunar map. It is just that so many changes are made to the base game, that players keep restarting games.

Once players get to the end of the base game - Lunar is the obvious choice.

Hydromancerx · Jul 6, 2014

@Faustmouse

So just to be clear these would just be wonders to begin with correct? Just like how the Mars Colony buildings are just wonders. If so I have no problem with planning out the Solar system however just like Mars I would like to have more than just one Wonder per place. Thus allowing more than one civ to get access the same place.

Currently Mars has ...

- Mars Colony (Acidalia)
- Mars Colony (Aeolis)
- Mars Colony (Amazonis)
- Mars Colony (Arcadia)
- Mars Colony (Argyre)
- Mars Colony (Chryse)
- Mars Colony (Daedalia)
- Mars Colony (Elysium)
- Mars Colony (Hellas)
- Mars Colony (Hesperia)
- Mars Colony (Icaria)
- Mars Colony (Isidis)
- Mars Colony (Lunae)
- Mars Colony (Meridiani)
- Mars Colony (Australe)
- Mars Colony (Boreum)
- Mars Colony (Syria)
- Mars Colony (Syrtis Major)
- Mars Colony (Utopia)

Note most of these places are flat. I used a mixture of Mars locations here and a Mars game here. Note that if we ever use Mars terrain these can be converted to require appropriate Mars terrain in their city vicinity. Such as requiring Martian Plains terrain type.

The current stats of them all work like this ...

Mars Colony (Name Here) [Wonder]
Cost: 132000
Req Buildings: National Aerospace Agency OR Commercial Spaceport OR Military Spaceport
Req Tech: Planetary Colonization
Obsolete Tech: -

Provides 1 Mars Rocks
-1000
-1 Population in All Cities (To Simulate Colonizing that site)
+200 with Planetary Defenses
+200 with Planetary Extraction
+200 with Planetary Trade
+200 with Planetary Megastructures
+200 with Extraterrestrial Agriculture
+200 with Planetary Manufacturing
+200 with Colony Arcology
+200 with Planetary Terraforming

Which means your colonies make a +600 :gold:

profit by the end but also give Mars rocks. The trade off is getting the Colonies early at the expense of gold.

Hydromancerx · Jul 6, 2014

For Moon Wonders I am thinking as a start ...

- Lunar Colony (Eratosthenes)
- Lunar Colony (Kepler)
- Lunar Colony (Montes Apenninus)
- Lunar Colony (Peary)
- Lunar Colony (Shackleton)
- Lunar Colony (Sinus Medii)
- Lunar Colony (Sinus Roris)

And for the stats ...

Lunar Colony (Name Here) [Wonder]
Cost: 45500
Req Buildings: National Aerospace Agency OR Commercial Spaceport OR Military Spaceport
Req Tech: Lunar Colonization
Obsolete Tech: -

Provides 1 Moon Rocks
-1000
-1 Population in All Cities (To Simulate Colonizing that site)
+200 with Lunar Manufacturing
+200 with Lunar Tourism
+200 with Lunar Trade
+200 with Lunar Megastructures
+200 with Extraterrestrial Agriculture
+200 with Colony Arcology
+200 with Lunar Terraforming

Faustmouse · Jul 6, 2014

Well, this is excactly the boring implention I was complaining about.
These wonders are all excactly the same, only the name is different. Not only that, they give +200 :gold:

at each of these techs. This results in a nice progression game wise, but why, for example, would it be as beneficial to put some defenses there as if you actually trade with it? Other thing, -1 Population in EVERY city is way too much. what is it to reduce your size from 50 to 49? A few million? A new founded colony would never be so big. Even -1 Population in ONE city would be too much. Otherwise, Settlers would need to reduce city size too.

I was less thinking of different location wonders but rather on buildings that actually represents the benefits of a planet. Like, on Mercury you could build peaks of eternal light, big solar farms, resource manufacturer, Solar Sail producer, Mass driver and it would give a bonus to settle venus.
On Neptune you could have also He3 extractor, deuterium extractor...

And I like to exculde moon and mars for now since they have their own terrain anyways.

Hydromancerx · Jul 6, 2014

Well, this is excactly the boring implention I was complaining about.

Like I said this is just the first step for testing. We can make them as unique as we want such a one Lunar colony giving Helium 3 while another Titanium. Or even have some special buildings require a specific wonder or choice of wonders.

for example, would it be as beneficial to put some defenses there as if you actually trade with it?

To protect it from Space Pirates? Or asteroids that could take out your colony?

Other thing, -1 Population in EVERY city is way too much.

Well I don't think you can have it only take from one city. Unless it worked like the immigrant unit.

I was less thinking of different location wonders but rather on buildings that actually represents the benefits of a planet. Like, on Mercury you could build peaks of eternal light, big solar farms, resource manufacturer, Solar Sail producer, Mass driver and it would give a bonus to settle venus.

Those are good ideas but you still need to "stake your claim". How about we merge out ideas and you have a set of general buildings that require you own one of the Colony Location Wonders. Such as if you have Mercury Colony (Bello) then you can build mega solar farms.

Faustmouse · Jul 6, 2014

Hydromancerx said:
Like I said this is just the first step for testing. We can make them as unique as we want such a one Lunar colony giving Helium 3 while another Titanium. Or even have some special buildings require a specific wonder or choice of wonders.

Maybe.

Hydromancerx said:
To protect it from Space Pirates? Or asteroids that could take out your colony?

Space pirates is nothing that will happen any time soon. And asteroids that actually hit your colony when your planet has some sort of atmosphere are so rare I doubt it would pay off to have expensive defenses. But ok, lets keep it as a first step.

Hydromancerx said:
Well I don't think you can have it only take from one city. Unless it worked like the immigrant unit.

As I said, even -1 Pop would be way too much actually.

Hydromancerx said:
Those are good ideas but you still need to "stake your claim". How about we merge out ideas and you have a set of general buildings that require you own one of the Colony Location Wonders. Such as if you have Mercury Colony (Bello) then you can build mega solar farms.

I was thinking the same here. There should be limited locations for colonies there. I was thinking making them increase the costs for the next one by 50% or so instead of give them a hard limit. After that, you could develope more infrastructure. I'd like to start with Mercury anyways, so here is what I'm thinking:

Why go there?
So we have lots of metals to build a colony without the need to import much stuff from earth, which is good due the high delta V (this is a measurement of energy) to get there. We also have probably some water there, but it is maybe smater to make it a fully unmanned colony in the first place. Except at the poles, daily temperature changes from freaking cold to incredibly hot. High radiation is also quite a problem. So one solution would be to dig deep underground, since you'd primary use it as mining colony anyways. But growing here a big population like a second earth is pretty much not worth the trouble.
A research base (also for the sun) would be reasonable, but beside this I picture mercury more as a giant mining and electricity harvesting colony with very few or no human presence at all.

Buildings:
A few colony sites to start with. You'd need them to build any of the following buildings. Probably best not as wonders (to avoid redundancies) but as increasingly more expensive buildings.
They should cost a BIG one time investment and quite high :gold:

upkeep.
They can either be the robot control center or this could be a seperated building.

Artificial Peak Of Eternal Light:
To get the maximum out of it, those peaks are very usefull. They won't cost upkeep, but quite a lot hammers to be build.

Small mine
Produces low quantity resources, only to build the colony itself.

Small manufacturing complex
Produces basic needs for the colony, no export yet.

Solar Power:
With more robots together the first stuff beeing produced. Can generate quite a lot of power.

Bigger Mines
For high volume mining, requires some upkeep, but rather low.

Advanced Manufacturing:
This produces Solar Sails and the required parts for Mass Drivers, as well as a huge Power Grid. And more robots for the colony of course.

Mass Driver
Here is when the colony changes from a net loss (quite small, after a big one time investment) to a huge profit gain. With Solar Sails, Mass Drivers and aerobreaking on earth, manufactured goods or raw materials can be send to earth or it's orbit for virtually no costs, since the engery for the mass drivers can be collected on mercury.
Solar ovens are also very efficient here so processing metal without the need for coal is no problem.

Basically, having such a mining colony on mercury could speed up colonization of the inner solar system, so you might want to take this into account. Also, the energy produced here could be transmitted via satellites back to earth.

General thoughts?
Edit: The names are totally changeable, I'm bad at this

Also, feel free to split/merge those buildings asmuch as you like, I'm sure we can find a solution.

Hydromancerx · Jul 7, 2014

I was thinking the same here. There should be limited locations for colonies there. I was thinking making them increase the costs for the next one by 50% or so instead of give them a hard limit. After that, you could develope more infrastructure. I'd like to start with Mercury anyways, so here is what I'm thinking:

Well aside from maybe Venus the land mass of all other "worlds" will be much less than Earth. However since one can choose the size of Earth and city placement on Earth can vary its hard too say how many locations should be available. Also Earth has a limited number of land locations (before sea colonization).

As seen above Mars currently has 19 real life locations, there of course can be made more, but how much more? We don't want too many either since we don't want it to be too easy to get a bunch of colonies. However we still want enough so more civs can get them and they are not all taken by the leading civ.

Why go there?
So we have lots of metals to build a colony without the need to import much stuff from earth, which is good due the high delta V (this is a measurement of energy) to get there. We also have probably some water there, but it is maybe smater to make it a fully unmanned colony in the first place. Except at the poles, daily temperature changes from freaking cold to incredibly hot. High radiation is also quite a problem. So one solution would be to dig deep underground, since you'd primary use it as mining colony anyways. But growing here a big population like a second earth is pretty much not worth the trouble.
A research base (also for the sun) would be reasonable, but beside this I picture mercury more as a giant mining and electricity harvesting colony with very few or no human presence at all.

Also there may be a factor of overpopulation and crowded nations. I am still leaning towards the -1 Population per colony since by the time you can make these colonies the Earth cities are HUGE! And since these are wonders and not actual cities it would make sense that ore colonists would leave to go there later. Alternatively we may want to think about population migration. Such as adding additional buildings that require the colony wonders to give benefits by lowering a cities population by 1. I am thinking maybe to have a new unit called a "Space Immigrant" that works like an Immigrant unit in that it lowers the pop of the city it was made in and then will build a special building in the city that made that colony wonder. We could even do similar things with cargo units in which they would not have to be produced in the city your wonder is in.

Small mine
Produces low quantity resources, only to build the colony itself.

Are you saying a mine for each specific colony? That might be overkill. However we could use it like the guilds in that if you had like "Lunar Mining Corporation" it could give + whatever from specific colonies. Just like how the Butcher's Guild gives + :gold:

from all Butchers. However in this case it would have to list all Mars colonies. Which is actually better than having to make a mine building for every colony wonder.

General thoughts?
Edit: The names are totally changeable, I'm bad at this
Also, feel free to split/merge those buildings asmuch as you like, I'm sure we can find a solution.

Yeah this is all brainstorming. I thin together we can find what works. I am thinking we need to treat colonies and planets on a regional scale rather than individual cities if we are not using actual cities.

The other weird thing is that the effects of the colonies will be indirect in basically how they influence Earth. Apposed to their specific needs. Such as if a colony is using food for themselves but not sending it back to Earth then the outcome is not food, but less maintenance. In fact should the colonies drain food too? Meaning rather than just draining money they are draining cities food. Also if thy do drain food should it be from the city the wonder is in or nationally from all cities?

Faustmouse · Jul 7, 2014

Hydromancerx said:
Well aside from maybe Venus the land mass of all other "worlds" will be much less than Earth. However since one can choose the size of Earth and city placement on Earth can vary its hard too say how many locations should be available. Also Earth has a limited number of land locations (before sea colonization)

Smaller then earth, but still unimaginable big. But yeah, there are other things to consider, like radiation, natural resources etc. Colony sites HAVE to be limited in some way.

What options do we have to limit things?
1) Making a fix number of WW, like for Mars. Downside is that it would add a lot of new buildings.
2) Soft limit like national units, so that each building would increase the costs of the next. This wouldn't stop the leader from taking a lot of the locations (which would be quite realistic actually, but not fun gameplay wise)
3) Restrict colony sites to one per Civ: unrealistic, frustrating since you can only have one and also I'd like to see some sort of race here.
4) Adding a Space property that is generated by Launch Sites etc but consumed by colonies. Preparing big rockets for launches takes time, so this is actually realistic. This could be extended to space exploration missions.
5) Same reason as 4, have each colony a "requires X Launch Sites".
6) A colony can only be founded by a unit, which then performs an incredibly expensive mission. Limit here would be the :gold:

you have. Very realistic, but "impossible" to balance at the moment.

Hydromancerx said:
As seen above Mars currently has 19 real life locations, there of course can be made more, but how much more? We don't want too many either since we don't want it to be too easy to get a bunch of colonies. However we still want enough so more civs can get them and they are not all taken by the leading civ.

See above.

Hydromancerx said:
Also there may be a factor of overpopulation and crowded nations. I am still leaning towards the -1 Population per colony since by the time you can make these colonies the Earth cities are HUGE! And since these are wonders and not actual cities it would make sense that ore colonists would leave to go there later. Alternatively we may want to think about population migration. Such as adding additional buildings that require the colony wonders to give benefits by lowering a cities population by 1. I am thinking maybe to have a new unit called a "Space Immigrant" that works like an Immigrant unit in that it lowers the pop of the city it was made in and then will build a special building in the city that made that colony wonder. We could even do similar things with cargo units in which they would not have to be produced in the city your wonder is in.

Well, I can see why you want to force this to happen. It IS cool. But it is not very realistic. India or China are highly overpopulated, but there is PLENTY of free space at the southpole. Why don't they go there? It's hostile, it's expensive to go there AND to keep a colony running there. In fact, floating cities will happen much sooner. But this aside, there are benefits to have a growing population on other planets. But if so, there are more suitable locations then Mercury. Mars, Venus, the Moon or Space Stations would be locations were I can imagine a growing colony.
As you said, cities on earth are HUGE. I am not against -1 population in my games, but it's just plain unrealistic. You wouldn't start a colonization with tens of millions of people. Not right at the start. - :food:

would be more realistic. But as I said, please not for Mercury. Let's have different celestial bodies differnt properties, so it DOES matter were you put your colonies at, ok? The space immigrant for bigger colonies sounds ok and interesting, yet not very realistic.

Hydromancerx said:
Are you saying a mine for each specific colony? That might be overkill. However we could use it like the guilds in that if you had like "Lunar Mining Corporation" it could give + whatever from specific colonies. Just like how the Butcher's Guild gives + from all Butchers. However in this case it would have to list all Mars colonies. Which is actually better than having to make a mine building for every colony wonder.

When I wrote this, I forgot that you can have multiple colonies on Mercury. So good question. One per colony site is an overkill indeed. Note that those smaller mines won't produce any exported goods, but are only for building your colony there. The bigger mine would produce/generate :gold:

or

then, so I think your idea with guilds is pretty good. And you would probably need only one small mine on Mercury to initiate several bases, so one building here is enough.

Hydromancerx said:
Yeah this is all brainstorming. I thin together we can find what works. I am thinking we need to treat colonies and planets on a regional scale rather than individual cities if we are not using actual cities.

Yeah they should. Yet having a Control Center that can be conquered is also very interesting. Or maybe a (great) spy mission that can "steal" access to a colony could be added?

Hydromancerx said:
The other weird thing is that the effects of the colonies will be indirect in basically how they influence Earth. Apposed to their specific needs. Such as if a colony is using food for themselves but not sending it back to Earth then the outcome is not food, but less maintenance. In fact should the colonies drain food too? Meaning rather than just draining money they are draining cities food. Also if thy do drain food should it be from the city the wonder is in or nationally from all cities?

Reducing maintenace sounds good. And actually by quite a lot given to the high launch costs. If they consume food, this could simulate space immigrants that actually go there. But if you want to consume the food because they send it to the colony, then they should also consume :hammers:

and

for the launches. And yeah, then it should be also nation-wide.

Hydromancerx · Jul 7, 2014

But as I said, please not for Mercury. Let's have different celestial bodies differnt properties, so it DOES matter were you put your colonies at, ok? The space immigrant for bigger colonies sounds ok and interesting, yet not very realistic.

Sure we can have it different for the type of place we want colonized.

Yeah they should. Yet having a Control Center that can be conquered is also very interesting. Or maybe a (great) spy mission that can "steal" access to a colony could be added?

Yeah that is one of the down sides is that since the wonder is made in a city that means if the city gets taken over than the colony is basically taken over too. Its only projects that can be made where taking over cities will not take over colonies. However projects are a pain to work with. We need like a non-local wonder.

darkedone02 · Jul 8, 2014

I'm been thinking...

Would it be actually nice to actually get some events such as comet landings and ufo sightings, and other things? What about alien lifeforms outside of the planet that we could meet up with? Space Pirates? other barbarians in space? What about a chance that aliens landing on our planet while we are still in the renaissance period, randomly spawning powerful barbarians?

Hydromancerx · Jul 8, 2014

darkedone02 said:
I'm been thinking...

Would it be actually nice to actually get some events such as comet landings and ufo sightings, and other things? What about alien lifeforms outside of the planet that we could meet up with? Space Pirates? other barbarians in space? What about a chance that aliens landing on our planet while we are still in the renaissance period, randomly spawning powerful barbarians?

Comet sighting could be done, but alien stuff is save for the very, very late game. See this topic for more info ...

C2C - Aliens

Faustmouse · Jul 9, 2014

@Hydro: No other comments on my above post? I'd like to know your thoughts about the different options of limited colonies.

@darkedone02:

I think there is a comet landing event and also one about UFO sightings.
An alien civilization as endgame challenge was under discussion. See Hydro's link.
Space Pirates: Very late - maybe. Rendezvous in space are hard enough, even if you planned it.
Barbarians in space... I think going into space is too hard to be done by "barbarians".
The chance that aliens would land here while we are in the renaissance is actually very very low due the short length of it. And IF they'd do, this would basically end the game. You would have absolutely NO chance against them.

Daedwartin · Jul 9, 2014

Whatever we come up witb, change the color on that post, Faustmouse

It's damn near unreadable, and isnt even comfortable to look at.

JosEPh_II · Jul 9, 2014

Daedwartin said:
Whatever we come up witb, change the color on that post, Faustmouse

It's damn near unreadable, and isnt even comfortable to look at.

You are supposed to have your 3-D glasses on! Jumps right out if you do! :mischief:

JosEPh

Hydromancerx · Jul 9, 2014

Faustmouse said:
@Hydro: No other comments on my above post? I'd like to know your thoughts about the different options of limited colonies.

Ok.

Smaller then earth, but still unimaginable big. But yeah, there are other things to consider, like radiation, natural resources etc. Colony sites HAVE to be limited in some way.

What options do we have to limit things?
1) Making a fix number of WW, like for Mars. Downside is that it would add a lot of new buildings.
2) Soft limit like national units, so that each building would increase the costs of the next. This wouldn't stop the leader from taking a lot of the locations (which would be quite realistic actually, but not fun gameplay wise)
3) Restrict colony sites to one per Civ: unrealistic, frustrating since you can only have one and also I'd like to see some sort of race here.
4) Adding a Space property that is generated by Launch Sites etc but consumed by colonies. Preparing big rockets for launches takes time, so this is actually realistic. This could be extended to space exploration missions.
5) Same reason as 4, have each colony a "requires X Launch Sites".
6) A colony can only be founded by a unit, which then performs an incredibly expensive mission. Limit here would be the you have. Very realistic, but "impossible" to balance at the moment.

1. True, but not nearly as much as if we made say a Lunar or Martian version of every critical building.

2. I am not sure what you mean. If you want them to be harder to build more than you need to do the opposite of what the City Hall buildings do. Rather than make it easier to make those buildings you make each building add a penalty to make more of them. Such as Lunar Colony (X) gives -5% Production of Lunar Colony (Y). The down side is you need every wonder to list every other wonder.

3. I think that is highly unrealistic. I vote no to 1 per civ.

4. That's a cool idea if done right. I are you thinking of having auto-buildings made when the levels reach certain levels? So like Lunar Colonies require is 100 Space Points while Mars Colonies Requires like 200 Space Points. And then once built the colony takes away like 10 space points per turn. The problem I see is if we have a limited amount of space points produced at launch sites that we might need a Healer/Police/Ecologist type unit that gives a dynamic amount of Space Points such as Rocket Scientists who gives space points when in a city but cost like a TON of gold as maintenance and probably a lot of hammers to build.

5. Can that be done for wonders? If so that might be the simplest way. However that means you need a lot of Earth cities to get colonies which in turn also means civs with more land are more likely to get more colonies in space thus snowballing things more.

6. Not sure what to say about this one.

Faustmouse · Jul 9, 2014

Daedwartin: better now?

Hydromancerx said:
Ok.

1. True, but not nearly as much as if we made say a Lunar or Martian version of every critical building.

2. I am not sure what you mean. If you want them to be harder to build more than you need to do the opposite of what the City Hall buildings do. Rather than make it easier to make those buildings you make each building add a penalty to make more of them. Such as Lunar Colony (X) gives -5% Production of Lunar Colony (Y). The down side is you need every wonder to list every other wonder.

3. I think that is highly unrealistic. I vote no to 1 per civ.

4. That's a cool idea if done right. I are you thinking of having auto-buildings made when the levels reach certain levels? So like Lunar Colonies require is 100 Space Points while Mars Colonies Requires like 200 Space Points. And then once built the colony takes away like 10 space points per turn. The problem I see is if we have a limited amount of space points produced at launch sites that we might need a Healer/Police/Ecologist type unit that gives a dynamic amount of Space Points such as Rocket Scientists who gives space points when in a city but cost like a TON of gold as maintenance and probably a lot of hammers to build.

5. Can that be done for wonders? If so that might be the simplest way. However that means you need a lot of Earth cities to get colonies which in turn also means civs with more land are more likely to get more colonies in space thus snowballing things more.

6. Not sure what to say about this one.

1. Well, we do have (or gonna have) buildings for every single animal and also tons of "2 resources in vicinity" buildings...

2. Goining the city administration road would be one way. But I meant it like it is done for spcial units: "Each unit in play increases cost by 2%", but instead 2%, I'd vote for 10-25%. This would increase rather fast, but it would simulate that it is more difficult to found a colony on not-so-optimal sites.

3. Good, we agree here.

4. Either that, or having Spacepoints generated by space missions only. So if you successfully land a probe on Mars for example, you'd get 100 Spacepoints. Every 500 Spacepoints, you'd unlock a new slot for colonies. This can be done with autobuildings every 500 points (Spacecolony 1, 2, 3....) that are required for and replaced by a colony site. You'd need a wonder per site then, too. Spacepoints in that means would be a measure how advanced and experienced your nation in space going is.
Maybe it should be more like: Some buildings give +1 per turn, missions can reach from 100 to 1000 points (flyby to sample return) and colonies would cost 50.000, 60.000, 70.000 points. Or we have a linear progression here but have colonies produce quite a big amount as well.

5. Sure it can. Your national Zoo iE requires 7 zoos. You could make Launch Site require quite a lot of :gold:

so this would be limiting rather then city counts.

6. Well, it would be an option.

So do you agree with the rest we've talked about here? If so, you want me to come up with building suggestions in more detail?

Hydromancerx · Jul 9, 2014

Faustmouse said:
So do you agree with the rest we've talked about here? If so, you want me to come up with building suggestions in more detail?

The more I think about it the less I am liking the whole "space points" idea. I am thinking perhaps we can do all we need to do through the other methods rather than a new property.

However I do want to hear your suggestions.

Faustmouse · Jul 10, 2014

It would overcomplicate things maybe, yeah. So, for Mercury:

Mercury Colony Site:
Tech: Planetary Colonization (IMHO, this tech is too late)
Requires Launch Site (3 in total) AND Control Center
Cost: 10 x normal building costs
-10000 :gold:

(actually, I`d prefer massive one time costs and then only -100 :gold:

)

Mercury Colony Mine:
Tech: Planetary Colonization
Requires Colony Site
Cost: 15 x normal building costs
- 500 :gold:

Mercury Colony Assembler:
Tech: Planetay Manufacturing
Requires Mercury Colony Mine
Cost: 15 x normal building costs
- 500 :gold:

Mercury Mining Complex:
Tech: Planetary Megastructures
Requires Mercury Colony Assembler
Cost: 15 x normal building costs
- 2000 :gold:

Mercury Manufacturing Complex
Tech: Planetary Megastructures
Requires Mercury Mining Complex
Cost: 15 x normal building costs
- 2000 :gold:

Mercury Solar Sail Factory
Tech: Planetary Trade
Requires Mercury Colony Assembler
Cost: 15 x normal building costs
- 500 :gold:

Mercury Solar Farm
Tech: Planetary Megastructures
Requires Mercury Assembly Complex (AND Peak of Eternal Light?)
Cost: 15 x normal building costs
This could be beamed to earth, so I guess you want :hammers:

for it? It should be around 1000 :hammers:

as well.
Provides Power

Mercury Massdriver
Tech: Planetary Trade
Requires Mercury Manufacturing Complex AND Mercury Solar Farm AND Mercury Solar Sail Factory
Cost: 15 x normal building costs
- 500 :gold:

+5000

and +500

per Mercury Mining Complex in all cities
Provoces Iron Wares AND Aluminim Wares AND Magnesia
50% faster construction of *List of Venus buildings*

We can add a Solar Oven between the Mine and Assembler or Mining Complex and Manufacturing Complex.
Kinda weird do design uildings since you wont have a benefit until you get your stuff to earth

C2C - Galactic Era

The Azurian

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