C2C - Housing

[Koshling]

I'm worried were back in a situation with nothing to soak up food excesses. Loading my current game with the latest assets has crazy high levels of food production in all my cities. Most every city is going to be pop 20+ way before medieval.

Not saying the buildings should have negative food, but we need something to compensate. For starters I'm thinking several improvements (especially farms) produce too much too soon (farm on tundra producing 7 food in medieval!). Also we have so many +food buildings that are easy to obtain (various camp variants and so on).

Perhaps early civics should have a negative commerce mutliplier for food or something?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'm worried were back in a situation with nothing to soak up food excesses. Loading my current game with the latest assets has crazy high levels of food production in all my cities. Most every city is going to be pop 20+ way before medieval.

Not saying the buildings should have negative food, but we need something to compensate. For starters I'm thinking several improvements (especially farms) produce too much too soon (farm on tundra producing 7 food in medieval!). Also we have so many +food buildings that are easy to obtain (various camp variants and so on).

Perhaps early civics should have a negative commerce mutliplier for food or something?

My Disease/Unhealthiness mod will soak up food and as your city grows it will soak up even more food until you find a cure in late industrial/modern times.

However, I do think we need o go through all the improvements since I don't think they have been fully balanced for the affects of the new eras. However this should probably be done after I fix all the improvements. I am currently testing the new early ones that will give access to plants when they should become available rather than waiting for calendar.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I'm worried were back in a situation with nothing to soak up food excesses. Loading my current game with the latest assets has crazy high levels of food production in all my cities. Most every city is going to be pop 20+ way before medieval.

Not saying the buildings should have negative food, but we need something to compensate. For starters I'm thinking several improvements (especially farms) produce too much too soon (farm on tundra producing 7 food in medieval!). Also we have so many +food buildings that are easy to obtain (various camp variants and so on).

Perhaps early civics should have a negative commerce mutliplier for food or something?

See now you know why I was hesitant to take out the negative food from my housing buildings. Make up your mind people. First you guys complain that the buildings have negative food , now your complaining that I took it out. *sigh*

If your not going to have the housing have negative food then atleast make cites take more food to grow or units take food to maintain.

 

[BlackZiggerat]

I myself have no problem increasing the food multiplier for cities. If there are things that would actually reduce food from a city, then it should be worked in. Diseases would certainly do this. I think perhaps the beginning tile values are too high for food and production, and may need adjustments to the prehistoric levels.

I've been playing the early game over and over. And one question I had. Was it intentional to make cavedwelling and shelter building be so close in time scale together? And should Cavedwelling be a starting tech, or nearly so?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I've been playing the early game over and over. And one question I had. Was it intentional to make cavedwelling and shelter building be so close in time scale together? And should Cavedwelling be a starting tech, or nearly so?

Well not all civilizations even lived in caves. Or i should say not all prehistoric people. The idea of "cavemen" is more based on the cave painting found mainly in Europe Note there have been other caves all over the world, however there were many prehistoric people that did not live in caves, because their were no caves where hey lived. Which is why shelter building was put so close to cave dwelling.

A cave is an already made shelter, while any human made shelter is in turn serve as an artificial cave. This is why they are linked. Anyone can seek shelter in a cave but it takes some skill to make even the most primitive man-made shelter.

As for why its not a starting tech is what i said before. Not all prehistoric people started near caves and through a nomadic lifestyle they were able to find cave locations. Sometimes even living in caves based upon the seasons, and then moving to another place later. Which is why its linked to Nomadic Lifestyle.

 

[BlackZiggerat]

Good reasoning. Thank you.

The grass huts would be a wonderful tech to possess, even w cavedwelling. As a nomad, you wouldn't necessarily have the luxury of caves, but camps to l

 

[Aveloren]

I am definitely in favour of housing adding negative food, in addition to adding unhealthiness to balance the massive boost in food production of the mod.

My reasoning for this is that in every culture as humanity began to become sedentary, living in closer proximity to domesticated animals and increased the densification of their own habitats, had more problems with disease and squalor (not to mention non-food producers such as warriors/priests/rulers no contributing to the regions food production just taking from it).

Nothing should reduce the negative food production from food, as non-farmers would take up residency in towns as a civilization grew, but a separate and VERY expensive tech line (at least at certain choke points) can be researched to reduce the disease markers. This would allow for some civilizations who do not care to or who are not able to, bypass such "luxury techs" for some time while allowing others to research them, showing the "wealth" of a civilization that is able to allocate its resources to the idea of "sanitation"; complex forms where quite rare until recently, except in certain cases of powerful empires such as Rome.

 

[Praetyre]

That would be an absolute lifesaver for my own little project, believe me. It's a nightmare trying to get populations big enough to build the Pyramids and mirror ancient metropolises like Babylon (200,000+), Londoninium (well over 250,000) and Rome (first over 1,000,000, I believe) without getting populations in the 1st century AD that would be generous for the High Middle Ages. Though, maybe it's just me testing with China on a map where it's closest competition is India.

Also, I might just be imagining this, but has anyone else noticed the latest version seems to spawn a truly and utterly terrifying number of Neanderthals in remote places? I could attach a save if necessary, but sub-Equatorial Africa was like one of the "carpets of doom" you get in Civ V. I like the idea of Neanderthals as a sort of "border patrol" to stop ridiculous situations on larger maps where Spain can discover Korea using just one of the early rogue units, but unless this is a product of taking out the script method of Neanderthal spawning, it does seem a tad silly. They ought to be most concentrated in Europe, if anything.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

...

Also, I might just be imagining this, but has anyone else noticed the latest version seems to spawn a truly and utterly terrifying number of Neanderthals in remote places? I could attach a save if necessary, but sub-Equatorial Africa was like one of the "carpets of doom" you get in Civ V. I like the idea of Neanderthals as a sort of "border patrol" to stop ridiculous situations on larger maps where Spain can discover Korea using just one of the early rogue units, but unless this is a product of taking out the script method of Neanderthal spawning, it does seem a tad silly. They ought to be most concentrated in Europe, if anything.

It is embarrasing, I maintain the Neanderthal spawning code but I hates them and don't use them in game. I recently released some code that should reduce the spawn rate based on game speed.

Neanderthals represent all the non Homo Sapiens human species.

Spain or at least the Celts did discover China in the neolithic or early bronze age. It is not that far and most of the way was settled and a trade route very early on.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If your not going to have the housing have negative food then atleast make cites take more food to grow or units take food to maintain.

I am not in favor of these buildings costing more food. It makes 0 sense unless you think of those living there as being unspoken for population. But then without them the people would still be there.

So the above quoted is a much better way to address the situation - that and some auditing of improvements perhaps.

 

[strategyonly]

UPDATE Version 14 is out as of 3:15 am, a brand new way to play the game.

 

[Koshling]

UPDATE Version 14 is out as of 3:15 am, a brand new way to play the game.

I am able to build Insulas, Domuses, and Slums all in the same city at once. Is this intended? (I thought these were essentailly the next level up from the huts which replace one another?)

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am able to build Insulas, Domuses, and Slums all in the same city at once. Is this intended? (I thought these were essentailly the next level up from the huts which replace one another?)

All of those you should be able to built at one. Its once you upgrade to the Medieval/Renaissance building that you can up grade these Ancient/Classical ones.

Each building represents a density (low, medium, high, super) and wealth class (low medium, high).

Thus you can have both lower wealth and higher wealth in your city at the same time. Just as you can have lower density and higher density building in your city at the same time.

The huts on the other hand were all Low Wealth/Low Density buildings, which is why they would replace each other. The Hovel replaces the Huts.

You can see the upgrades in Civpedia's Building Upgrades section.

 

[Schwarzbart]

I would suggest that the low Density Building will be replaced by the High Density Building of the same class.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I would suggest that the low Density Building will be replaced by the High Density Building of the same class.

Why? Just because you have apartments doesn't mean you cannot have houses as well. A well balanced city has all types of density zones as well as wealth zones. Not everyone wants to be packed into high density housing. For instance a rich person might want to buy a Mason which is low density but high wealth. Likewise there may poor people who cannot afford to live an apartment and must live in a low density house in low wealth.

 

[Schwarzbart]

It maybe does from the realism point but with the curent cost of -10 defense I doubt one whant to have to many of this building build. (Still bether then +x% Maintainance because this can kill a Civ as soon Corps come around)
But if there is a Slum do you think there are many seperta Hovel around or are this hovel part of the Slum? I would say its the later.
Also from the point that you could have non of this Buildings at all I would say its just the majority you have in this city and if you dont build it there is some kind of mix.

 

[Hydromancerx]

First of all its Hovels as in plural. There is more than one hovel, a whole zone of hovels if you will. Second the names are not really important its the zone, density and era they are in that matters. In fact the tags of the buildings are called their zoning abbreviation such as a hovel is ERA1_LDLW which stand for "Ancient/Classical Era Low Density Low Wealth". However that's much too long of a name to list for a building so I used the word "Hovels".

Please read though the entire thread to see why I came to the decisions I did. I already took out all the - I am not taking out that stuff too. Though i still think the - helped balance out all the + buildings.

 

[Schwarzbart]

Sorry Its just my personal feeling that in the start the Huts/Hovels are great buildings for the Produktion bonus.
But by start of the Medieval Era you have so much building aviable that the tradeof less Protection for some Production and Health bonus dont look like a good deal anymore. At last its for my game but maybe because I am the absolut Tech and Religion leader there and so the Religion Buldings are more interesting then your houses.

 

[BlueGenie]

To throw in my two pennies worth:

Housing areas is a really good idea. I agree with not having it cost food (already calculated into the food needed to grow in pop) but also think hammers shouldn't be added via housing areas. Some gold (taxes) and even Culture in the high wealth ones (collectors of arts, smaller museums opening up, a.s.o).
With that I also think that the Housing system would be a perfect way to keep cities on an on par level, needing the housings to pass a certain pop amount. Early Grass Huts for pop 2 or 3. Bone Huts and Animal Hide Tents for 4 or 5. That way any extra hammers come in way of more workers in the city radius.
Would have to make the different types upgrade by reaching techs rather than having them obsolete though, and do something about what would happen if getting +1 pop from a wonder (or event). Wouldn't be good if growth was stopped at for instance 8 and building Hanging Gardens popped it up to 9 and then it suddenly could keep growing again.
Health care things could also increase pop max, as well as access to fresh water and Power.

Cheers

 

[Koshling]

To throw in my two pennies worth:

Housing areas is a really good idea. I agree with not having it cost food (already calculated into the food needed to grow in pop) but also think hammers shouldn't be added via housing areas. Some gold (taxes) and even Culture in the high wealth ones (collectors of arts, smaller museums opening up, a.s.o).
With that I also think that the Housing system would be a perfect way to keep cities on an on par level, needing the housings to pass a certain pop amount. Early Grass Huts for pop 2 or 3. Bone Huts and Animal Hide Tents for 4 or 5. That way any extra hammers come in way of more workers in the city radius.
Would have to make the different types upgrade by reaching techs rather than having them obsolete though, and do something about what would happen if getting +1 pop from a wonder (or event). Wouldn't be good if growth was stopped at for instance 8 and building Hanging Gardens popped it up to 9 and then it suddenly could keep growing again.
Health care things could also increase pop max, as well as access to fresh water and Power.

Cheers

IMO this should be the effect anyway via current health/unhealth. It may just be that the overall balance is slightly off, meaning it's too easy to be healthy without all the housing currently. I don't really see the need for a hard-cap mechanism if the health is tuned right.