C2C - Housing

[ls612]

I don't totally agree about the hunting, That is directly related to your start position and number of AI you placed in the game.

And with the recent additions early game growth isn't that good either imho. Why shouldn't I get a decent return from my worked tiles? BerryBushes and Mushrooms are now trash and wasted space. I never build them till much much later. Usually After I enter Ancient era.

So I guess I disagree with your assessment about the Pre Era.

JosEPh

Berry bushes are mushrooms give a net +1 food after Herbalism, so you should build them then. They start with +1 and +1 , but at Herbalism they get +1, so you are left with a net of +1 .

 

[Thunderbrd]

Which is why I'm finding Herbalism one of the best first goals techwise.

 

[Koshling]

Which is why I'm finding Herbalism one of the best first goals techwise.

That and the chance to get the herbal medicine event while you still have 1 pop.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That and the chance to get the herbal medicine event while you still have 1 pop.

I'd not considered that but I was nevertheless tending to benefit from it It takes outright memorization of event triggers to keep this kind of thing in mind so I'm... impressed!

 

[JosEPh_II]

Berry bushes are mushrooms give a net +1 food after Herbalism, so you should build them then. They start with +1 and +1 , but at Herbalism they get +1, so you are left with a net of +1 .

Not on my game they don't. You also even after Herbalism (and Yes I get as early as I can) get +1 and +1 Health plus +1 food and +1 food "eaten" ( the slice with a bite out of it) so it Is a Wash. So until the +1 food "eaten" disappears (sometime after Sed Life) then what you have posted becomes true. Not before though.

Do you all Not pay attention to that? Or is this again another Bad "actual" display. If the food you gain is ued immediately by the "eaten" then there is no net gain and therefore No Growth.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

Not on my game they don't. You also even after Herbalism (and Yes I get as early as I can) get +1 and +1 Health plus +1 food and +1 food eaten so it a wash. So until the +1 food eaten disappears (sometime after Sed Life) then what you have posted becomes true. Not before though.

Do you all Not pay attention to that? Or is this again another Bad "actual" display. If the food you gain is ued immediately by the "eaten" then there is no net gain and therefore No Growth.

JosEPh

That's not what the "food eaten" icon means. That icon means that you are reducing unhealthiness (which is then added back) by 1, so you are wasting one less food. It confused me for a while, but if you try building the building after Herbalism and check the city screen you should see what the actual effects are.

That does however most likely qualify as a display bug and should be looked at.

For clairification, here is the building XML for Berry Bushes

Spoiler :

		<BuildingInfo>
			<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_BERRY_BUSHES</BuildingClass>
			<Type>BUILDING_BERRY_BUSHES</Type>
			<SpecialBuildingType>NONE</SpecialBuildingType>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BERRY_BUSHES</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BERRY_BUSHES_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BERRY_BUSHES_STRATEGY</Strategy>
			<Advisor>ADVISOR_GROWTH</Advisor>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_BERRY_BUSHES</ArtDefineTag>
			<MovieDefineTag>NONE</MovieDefineTag>
			<HolyCity>NONE</HolyCity>
			<ReligionType>NONE</ReligionType>
			<StateReligion>NONE</StateReligion>
			<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
			<PrereqReligion>NONE</PrereqReligion>
			<PrereqCorporation>NONE</PrereqCorporation>
			<FoundsCorporation>NONE</FoundsCorporation>
			<GlobalReligionCommerce>NONE</GlobalReligionCommerce>
			<GlobalCorporationCommerce>NONE</GlobalCorporationCommerce>
			<VictoryPrereq>NONE</VictoryPrereq>
			<FreeStartEra>NONE</FreeStartEra>
			<MaxStartEra>NONE</MaxStartEra>
			<ObsoleteTech>TECH_AGRICULTURE</ObsoleteTech>
			<PrereqTech>TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING</PrereqTech>
			<TechTypes/>
			<Bonus>NONE</Bonus>
			<PrereqBonuses/>
			<ProductionTraits/>
			<HappinessTraits/>
			<NoBonus>NONE</NoBonus>
			<PowerBonus>NONE</PowerBonus>
			<FreeBonus>NONE</FreeBonus>
			<iNumFreeBonuses>0</iNumFreeBonuses>
			<FreeBuilding>NONE</FreeBuilding>
			<FreePromotion>NONE</FreePromotion>
			<CivicOption>NONE</CivicOption>
			<GreatPeopleUnitClass>NONE</GreatPeopleUnitClass>
			<iGreatPeopleRateChange>0</iGreatPeopleRateChange>
			<iHurryAngerModifier>0</iHurryAngerModifier>
			<bBorderObstacle>0</bBorderObstacle>
			<bTeamShare>0</bTeamShare>
			<bWater>0</bWater>
			<bRiver>0</bRiver>
			<bPower>0</bPower>
			<bDirtyPower>0</bDirtyPower>
			<bAreaCleanPower>0</bAreaCleanPower>
			<DiploVoteType>NONE</DiploVoteType>
			<bForceTeamVoteEligible>0</bForceTeamVoteEligible>
			<bCapital>0</bCapital>
			<bGovernmentCenter>0</bGovernmentCenter>
			<bGoldenAge>0</bGoldenAge>
			<bAllowsNukes>0</bAllowsNukes>
			<bMapCentering>0</bMapCentering>
			<bNoUnhappiness>0</bNoUnhappiness>
			<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
			<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
			<bNeverCapture>0</bNeverCapture>
			<bNukeImmune>0</bNukeImmune>
			<bPrereqReligion>0</bPrereqReligion>
			<bCenterInCity>0</bCenterInCity>
			<iAIWeight>100</iAIWeight>
			<iCost>5</iCost>
			<iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
			<iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
			<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
			<iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
			<iConquestProb>50</iConquestProb>
			<iCitiesPrereq>0</iCitiesPrereq>
			<iTeamsPrereq>0</iTeamsPrereq>
			<iLevelPrereq>0</iLevelPrereq>
			<iMinLatitude>0</iMinLatitude>
			<iMaxLatitude>90</iMaxLatitude>
			<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
			<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
			<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
			<iGlobalGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGlobalGreatPeopleRateModifier>
			<iAnarchyModifier>0</iAnarchyModifier>
			<iGoldenAgeModifier>0</iGoldenAgeModifier>
			<iGlobalHurryModifier>0</iGlobalHurryModifier>
			<iExperience>0</iExperience>
			<iGlobalExperience>0</iGlobalExperience>
			<iFoodKept>0</iFoodKept>
			<iAirlift>0</iAirlift>
			<iAirModifier>0</iAirModifier>
			<iAirUnitCapacity>0</iAirUnitCapacity>
			<iNukeModifier>0</iNukeModifier>
			<iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
			<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
			<iAreaFreeSpecialist>0</iAreaFreeSpecialist>
			<iGlobalFreeSpecialist>0</iGlobalFreeSpecialist>
			<iMaintenanceModifier>0</iMaintenanceModifier>
			<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
			<iGlobalWarWearinessModifier>0</iGlobalWarWearinessModifier>
			<iEnemyWarWearinessModifier>0</iEnemyWarWearinessModifier>
			<iHealRateChange>0</iHealRateChange>
			<iHealth>-1</iHealth>
			<iAreaHealth>0</iAreaHealth>
			<iGlobalHealth>0</iGlobalHealth>
			<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
			<iAreaHappiness>0</iAreaHappiness>
			<iGlobalHappiness>0</iGlobalHappiness>
			<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
			<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
			<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
			<iSpaceProductionModifier>0</iSpaceProductionModifier>
			<iGlobalSpaceProductionModifier>0</iGlobalSpaceProductionModifier>
			<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
			<iCoastalTradeRoutes>0</iCoastalTradeRoutes>
			<iGlobalTradeRoutes>0</iGlobalTradeRoutes>
			<iTradeRouteModifier>0</iTradeRouteModifier>
			<iForeignTradeRouteModifier>0</iForeignTradeRouteModifier>
			<iGlobalPopulationChange>0</iGlobalPopulationChange>
			<iFreeTechs>0</iFreeTechs>
			<iDefense>0</iDefense>
			<iBombardDefense>0</iBombardDefense>
			<iAllCityDefense>0</iAllCityDefense>
			<iEspionageDefense>0</iEspionageDefense>
			<iAsset>0</iAsset>
			<iPower>0</iPower>
			<fVisibilityPriority>0.0</fVisibilityPriority>
			<SeaPlotYieldChanges/>
			<RiverPlotYieldChanges/>
			<GlobalSeaPlotYieldChanges/>
			<YieldChanges>
				<iYield>1</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
			</YieldChanges>
			<CommerceChanges>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
			</CommerceChanges>
			<ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
			</ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
			<CommerceChangeDoubleTimes/>
			<CommerceModifiers/>
			<GlobalCommerceModifiers/>
			<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
			<StateReligionCommerces/>
			<CommerceHappinesses/>
			<ReligionChanges/>
			<SpecialistCounts/>
			<FreeSpecialistCounts/>
			<CommerceFlexibles/>
			<CommerceChangeOriginalOwners/>
			<ConstructSound/>
			<BonusHealthChanges/>
			<TechHealthChanges>
				<TechHealthChange>
					<PrereqTech>TECH_HERBALISM</PrereqTech>
					<iHealth>1</iHealth>
				</TechHealthChange>
			</TechHealthChanges>
			<BonusHappinessChanges/>
			<BonusProductionModifiers/>
			<UnitCombatFreeExperiences/>
			<DomainFreeExperiences/>
			<DomainProductionModifiers/>
			<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
			<PrereqBuildingClasses/>
			<BuildingClassNeededs/>
			<SpecialistYieldChanges/>
			<BonusYieldModifiers/>
			<ImprovementFreeSpecialists/>
			<Flavors/>
			<HotKey/>
			<bAltDown>0</bAltDown>
			<bShiftDown>0</bShiftDown>
			<bCtrlDown>0</bCtrlDown>
			<iHotKeyPriority>0</iHotKeyPriority>
		</BuildingInfo>

 

[JosEPh_II]

The xml is only part of the equation. The hidden Growth modifiers that affect the whole Preh era are also into play.

If I would ever see my food per turn increase by 1 after building BB or Mrms in Preh Era I might agree with you. Like I said it's some time after Sed. Life (leaving Preh Era growth restriction Modifiers for Ancient growth restriction Modifiers) does it become a usable food source.

And we've had this same discussion back when hydro added the +1 several versions back.
And I still Hate to See any thing in the game that gives +1 Health and at the same time +1 . It's nonsensical and what is the real point? So that down the road when you have 31+ and 30+ Health that a modifier % can kick in? K I S S.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

The on mushrooms and berries are to represent poisonous mushrooms and berries. Thus Herbalism can separate them. I could always just move them to Herbalism and have them only give +1 . But it should work that cancels .

 

[Thunderbrd]

That does however most likely qualify as a display bug and should be looked at.

I believe its actually displaying as intended, which you did explain there. But it IS at first a bit confusing, expressing a double negative, so perhaps the intention is a bit misguided somehow.

The xml is only part of the equation. The hidden Growth modifiers that affect the whole Preh era are also into play.

If I would ever see my food per turn increase by 1 after building BB or Mrms in Preh Era I might agree with you. Like I said it's some time after Sed. Life (leaving Preh Era growth restriction Modifiers for Ancient growth restriction Modifiers) does it become a usable food source.

And we've had this same discussion back when hydro added the +1 several versions back.
And I still Hate to See any thing in the game that gives +1 Health and at the same time +1 . It's nonsensical and what is the real point? So that down the road when you have 31+ and 30+ Health that a modifier % can kick in? K I S S.

JosEPh

There's a few buildings (carrion) that are pretty much useless from this kind of interaction. Mainly due to the fact that by the time you can eliminate the unhealth from carrion you've obsoleted carrion entirely.

However, its like this for say, the Berry Bushes: You can build this building now but if you do it won't be worthwhile until Herbalism counters its negative effect. So you need to think about it and wait until you're on track to getting Herbalism (or somehow have nothing else to do) before you start building it so as soon as you gain Herbalism, it becomes valuable. By adding 1 Food, 1 Unhealth and 1 Health (but only with Herbalism) you make it something intended to be timed right on building it.

There's no hidden modifier negating the net gain after herbalism.

And to address 'the point'... many forms of mushrooms and berries are poisonous and until Herbalism, when your people begin to take more notice of what plants have what effects and how to identify them as different at all, your society gains as much as they lose from devouring them ignorantly. The building represents more of a discovery and new exploitation: 'hey we found some food sources of this nature nearby' type.

 

[AIAndy]

I would suggest to reduce the amount of unhealthiness in small cities.
20% of to pop 1 cities
40% of to pop 2 cities
60% of to pop 3 cities
80% of to pop 4 cities
Full from pop 5 cities upwards

 

[strategyonly]

But then what do you do in the Era's that had the "Black Plague" and wiped out half of Europe and alot of places early on had "Leprosy", then that would be in the disease area) i suppose)?

 

[Nimek]

I dont understand why you cant simply remove unhealthy from housig and add more to grow instead

1 Realistic - people dont want to live in places where homes are poor so city grow slower
2 Food from hunting will not be wasted
3 Players will not be angry that they started with penalty

Personaly when i played first time in C2C and saw big unhealthy in just built first city i think that mod is full of bugs

 

[strategyonly]

I dont understand why you cant simply remove unhealthy from housig and add more to grow instead

1 Realistic - people dont want to live in places where homes are poor so city grow slower
2 Food from hunting will not be wasted
3 Players will not be angry that they started with penalty

Personally when i played first time in C2C and saw big unhealthy in just built first city i think that mod is full of bugs

1. What about the people that live in Zimbabwe/Africa/India/Japan, then? OR are you just talking gameplay?

 

[AIAndy]

1. What about the people that live in Zimbabwe/Africa/India/Japan, then? OR are you just talking gameplay?

He is talking gameplay and I agree with him.
Starting with large unhealthiness invalidates any food gain including hunting until you can actually get beyond it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We used to have what I felt was a good balance at the beginning regarding unhealth. Basically, it was around zeroing out so you still had a positive (and could make use of carrion) if you had leader/terrain working for you and a negative if you had them working against you.

This seemed to be striking it just right at the beginning imo.

 

[bill2505]

He is talking gameplay and I agree with him.
Starting with large unhealthiness invalidates any food gain including hunting until you can actually get beyond it.

yea but it is realististic that some fild plants at first are going to cause a little unhealthiness

 

[ls612]

yea but it is realististic that some fild plants at first are going to cause a little unhealthiness

But this is still a game, and needs to remain fun. And, adding a whole lot of unhealthiness and eliminating growth early-game is not fun at all.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Right but I think the point here is let's not take the unhealth away from a rationally thought out building rather than adjusting some of the more base underlying causes for increased unheath out of the gate.

 

[bill2505]

But this is still a game, and needs to remain fun. And, adding a whole lot of unhealthiness and eliminating growth early-game is not fun at all.

what difficulty you are playing

 

[Hydromancerx]

I dont understand why you cant simply remove unhealthy from housig and add more to grow instead

1 Realistic - people dont want to live in places where homes are poor so city grow slower
2 Food from hunting will not be wasted
3 Players will not be angry that they started with penalty

Personaly when i played first time in C2C and saw big unhealthy in just built first city i think that mod is full of bugs

Some people do not have a choice. When you crowd people together you may get more people working but also its unhealthy to pack people in like that. And its not just people its most living thing. If there is a high population in a limited area disease will run rampant since its easier to spread from one host to another. Not to mention sanitation is much harder to maintain.

But this is still a game, and needs to remain fun. And, adding a whole lot of unhealthiness and eliminating growth early-game is not fun at all.

True but prehistoric life was very hard and the death rate was horrible. Even a simple cut could mean death. Then trying to live without a shelter is even worse. Hypothermia or Sunstroke are easy to get if you are not sheltered from the elements.

If you are not storing food anywhere then its much easier for animals to get them or even for it to rot faster. Prehistoric life is not the "Flintstones", its a very hard life. Why do you think they have survival shows on TV if it was not hard? And they have the advantage of knowing what they are doing. And frequently with modern tools as well.

Right but I think the point here is let's not take the unhealth away from a rationally thought out building rather than adjusting some of the more base underlying causes for increased unheath out of the gate.

Indeed. it was not too long ago that people were complaining about too much and in the game. We have done a much better job at dealing with the too much but I still feel we have too much . However there are plenty of ways to bring some into the game.

Also the mass outcry of people saying too much tells me that people were not building the housing before. Because not much has changed in the area of buildings.