C2C: Promotions

[strategyonly]

@TB

You know there will be a TON of Bug replies, if you dont fix this (see attached) before the release!!

 

[Flinx]

It seems that the promotions hinting sight and hunting sight 2 miss the appropriate unitcombat tags.
I filled in unit hunter and do fine now.

But there are promotions which need to be tweaked or to be more precise, prereqs wich need to be altered.

Some buildings or wonders give free promotions to all units, for example a zoroastrian wonder grants free morale promotion to all units built in this city.
On the check for the next promotion you don't fullfill the prereqs and get this morale promotion removed, since Morale needs promotion_leader as a prereq.

Same for the free speed promotion out of the riding school. Speed needs flanking 3 and combat 3, so if you don't have enough points to promote your units up to the prereqa you'll lose this promo on the next promotion upgrade.

DH's militia promotions are also removed in the process of the next level up.

I'd suggest that you either check the new to achieve promotions before they are applied and leave the existing and free given promos as they are or rearrange the promo checks for not to remove free promotions.

Most people do like to keep the hard earned promotions, at least i do.

 

[ls612]

@TB

You know there will be a TON of Bug replies, if you dont fix this (see attached) before the release!!

If this doesn't get fixed I don't think I'll be uploading the release. This sort of consistent problem with a system that has been in for several months now is unacceptable for a stable version of C2C. Thunderbrd needs to get this fixed before V29 is released.

 

[draz]

I'd suggest that you either check the new to achieve promotions before they are applied and leave the existing and free given promos as they are or rearrange the promo checks for not to remove free promotions.

Most people do like to keep the hard earned promotions, at least i do.

How hard would it be to disable that pre-req check as a temporary fix? In my current game I'm seeing it more and more now, and if it can be done just by flat out disabling the check altogether (instead of having to disable it for every unit/promotion or whatever - I've no idea how the mechanics work, exactly) I could just do that for now. Unless the result would be something crazy like every promotion available instantly, that is.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If this doesn't get fixed I don't think I'll be uploading the release. This sort of consistent problem with a system that has been in for several months now is unacceptable for a stable version of C2C. Thunderbrd needs to get this fixed before V29 is released.

I hate to say it but I have to agree. We don't want the culture units to loose their promotions just because they would not normally get them. The reason many have promotions is because they would not normally get them on a unit of the same type.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I hate to say it but I have to agree. We don't want the culture units to loose their promotions just because they would not normally get them. The reason many have promotions is because they would not normally get them on a unit of the same type.

I believe what ls612 was referring to were the TXT bugs that SO pointed out in worker promotions, but the promotion thing sounds like a pretty big bug too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@TB

You know there will be a TON of Bug replies, if you dont fix this (see attached) before the release!!

Agree completely... and there's a few others of nearly equal importance. Lots of bugs to sort out on this version in a lot of places. This one should be one of the easier ones.

I've been stuck trying to get this last bit of the project I'm on done (which I believe I'm pretty much there now) so after my push today, I'll be doing nothing but debugging (and a LOT of it!) and I'll even have to prioritorize the bugs. This one is one of the first on the agenda though cuz its pretty much flatly annoying.

It seems that the promotions hinting sight and hunting sight 2 miss the appropriate unitcombat tags.
I filled in unit hunter and do fine now.

But there are promotions which need to be tweaked or to be more precise, prereqs wich need to be altered.

Some buildings or wonders give free promotions to all units, for example a zoroastrian wonder grants free morale promotion to all units built in this city.
On the check for the next promotion you don't fullfill the prereqs and get this morale promotion removed, since Morale needs promotion_leader as a prereq.

Same for the free speed promotion out of the riding school. Speed needs flanking 3 and combat 3, so if you don't have enough points to promote your units up to the prereqa you'll lose this promo on the next promotion upgrade.

DH's militia promotions are also removed in the process of the next level up.

I'd suggest that you either check the new to achieve promotions before they are applied and leave the existing and free given promos as they are or rearrange the promo checks for not to remove free promotions.

Most people do like to keep the hard earned promotions, at least i do.

Some great analysis there that clearly shows that a big part of the problem here is that somehow the promo losses aren't taking into account the rule of free promos being free (thus immune to most causes to obsolete.) Anyhow, some of what you've said here will speed up the debugging process a LOT! I think you pretty much nailed down the Hunting Sight issue. Thanks!

 

[ls612]

I believe what ls612 was referring to were the TXT bugs that SO pointed out in worker promotions, but the promotion thing sounds like a pretty big bug too.

No, that part is easy (in fact, I'm changing that on the SVN right now). I'm very unhappy about all of the Thunderbrd-related bugs in the SVN right now that have been known for weeks but not addressed for who knows what reason. I wish that Thunderbrd instead of starting with a new grand project (which really shouldn't be in the freeze) should have fixed these bugs a month ago when they first came up. Bugfixes in one's stuff should always take priority over new large projects.

Agree completely... and there's a few others of nearly equal importance. Lots of bugs to sort out on this version in a lot of places. This one should be one of the easier ones.

I've been stuck trying to get this last bit of the project I'm on done (which I believe I'm pretty much there now) so after my push today, I'll be doing nothing but debugging (and a LOT of it!) and I'll even have to prioritorize the bugs. This one is one of the first on the agenda though cuz its pretty much flatly annoying.



Some great analysis there that clearly shows that a big part of the problem here is that somehow the promo losses aren't taking into account the rule of free promos being free (thus immune to most causes to obsolete.) Anyhow, some of what you've said here will speed up the debugging process a LOT! I think you pretty much nailed down the Hunting Sight issue. Thanks!

I really hope that all of this debugging doesn't delay the release. It will be a pain for me to upload during the week before Easter (which is why I wanted for everything to be ready before this Thursday or Friday, which doesn't seem to be in the cards).

 

[Thunderbrd]

All noted bugs came in after the beginning of the project. Thus why my list of them have been compiling on the backs of the note pages I've been using to keep myself straight on these projects. This one has taken a while because I've been trying to maximize time use and throwing in a number of things on top of this project as soon as they were requested. It didn't help that work really picked up either. I expected the project to be done 2 weeks ago and it would've been if I hadn't added the new requests into it.

And no, it shouldn't take priority when if you commit what you have so far you're committing nothing but a big mess. I believe this thing is pretty much wrapped up but I just need to run a few tests now.

Also... lets try not to be TOO anal about release dates... this is starting to feel altogether too much like a publishing deadline. If we have to make the choice to delay 2, 3, 4 weeks to make this thing as bug free as we know how to make it, would that not be worth a release delay? Or would it be better to let them all be?

 

[ls612]

All noted bugs came in after the beginning of the project. Thus why my list of them have been compiling on the backs of the note pages I've been using to keep myself straight on these projects. This one has taken a while because I've been trying to maximize time use and throwing in a number of things on top of this project as soon as they were requested. It didn't help that work really picked up either. I expected the project to be done 2 weeks ago and it would've been if I hadn't added the new requests into it.

May I suggest that you have 2 SVN local copies? One of them can be your project one in which you develop this new stuff, and the other can be unmodified and used for bugfixing. I do basically the same thing (except I have a third one for XML changes and releases, and a 4th one for the MP game).

 

[Thunderbrd]

I often do that, yes, but I still don't like to let the juggling act of getting progress made on a project come to a stop, all the balls drop (thoughts as to what need to be done next), so that something else can be addressed, then going back trying to find all those thoughts, pick them back up and start juggling again, only to be interrupted again the next day.

Much more efficient to just do something, then do the next thing. Projects are like trains. There's a lot of momentum needed to keep them going and its hard to get that momentum back if it stops on the track.

And also about what you just suggested, I'm growing more comfortable with merges yes but its still fairly annoying to have to merge with your own coding.

 

[Flinx]

Well, below i compiled a breakdown of wonders which grant free promotions.
Most of them won't cause any problems, some of them do of course.

Religious buildings / wonders

Spoiler :

Asatru
Thor altar - Mjolnir promotion
Thor sanctuary - Thor altar in every city

Confucianism
The Kong Miao - Morale

Druidic Traditions
Nature Alliance - Guerilla I
Nature Legacy - Woodman I

Hellenism
Hellenic Gymnasia - Pankration
The Erechtheum - Coastal Guard I

Ngaiism
Naiteru-Kob Bless - Guardian spirit
Ngai Na-nyoke Bless - Vengeance

Shinto
Matsumoto castle - Looter
Shinto Jingu - Honour

Shamanism
Spirits Alliance - Guerilla I
Spirits Legacy - Woodman I

Zoroastrianism
Apadana Palace - Order of Ormazd
Seti Pir - Morale

Great Wonders

Spoiler :

221B Baker Street Security II
Alamut - Fanatic
Blarney Castle - Deception I
Famen Temple - Morale (for Missionaries only)
Flavian Amphitheatre - Combat I
Magellan's Voyage - Navigation I
Nemo's Naval Academy - Navigation II
Shaolin temple - Martial Arts I, Martial Arts II, Martial Arts III
The Motherland Calls - Motherland I
Venetian Arsenal - Combat I

Buildings

Spoiler :

Tattoo hut - Tattoo
Tattoo Parlor - Tattoo

Traing Dojo - Martial Arts I
Masters Dojo - Martial Arts II

Traits

Spoiler :

Aggressive - Aggressive, Combat I
Deceiver - Deception I, Security I
Politician - Loyal
Progressist - Improved Radar, Combat AI 1.0, Defensive Protocols 1.0
Protective - City garrison I, Trench I
Seafaring - Navigation I, Amphibious

The main problem is the check for existing promotions for their prereqs.
Spies start with Commando for instance, Commando has Combat IV as prereq.
Which means that on the next time i can promote my spy he will lose his Commando promotion because he doesn't have Combat IV - and will never get to.

While i see some elegance in this consistent promotion system it din not take into account that we already have a bunch of Buildings / Wonders / Traits and of course Units which start with Free Promotions for they have no prereqs - according to the new combat promotion system that is.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Free Promos shouldn't trigger a check against those prereqs so it should be relatively easy to figure out where its going wrong. I'll be looking to fix that later today or tomorrow (downloading fresh repository now.)

 

[Koshling]

Free Promos shouldn't trigger a check against those prereqs so it should be relatively easy to figure out where its going wrong. I'll be looking to fix that later today or tomorrow (downloading fresh repository now.)

Check trait promos too - I think I have lost things like free speed from traits in some cases.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Flinx

You forgot ...

Buildings
- Hunting Instruction = Hunter I
- Bamboo Armorour = Bamboo Armor
- Poison Crafter = Poison Tips
- Riding School = Speed
- Cartographer's Shop = Mobility
- Bandits Hideout = Looter

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

he also forgot the Tengri buildings. Then there are the promotions that a unit gets just for being that unit eg Hunting Sight to Hunters.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Is it a problem with the building coding or the calculating procedure when awarding experience-earned promotions?

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's a problem in the obsoletion check in the code somehow bypassing the 'free' status of promotions that should be noted on a promotion when given to a unit by any means outside of a select few (such as those selected when leveling.)

I did (somewhat) recently manipulate that stuff when I wanted to give consideration for trait promos disappearing if a trait were removed from the leader. I consolidated a lot of coding and streamlined things quite a bit but obviously somewhere in there I failed to let the 'free' status assert that said promo should not need to qualify under most obsoletion guidelines. It shouldn't take long to find and fix once I get the new SVN upload finalized. May have a fix by the end of this evening, Wednesday at the latest. I also have to go back and figure out which of the many bug saves I've collected is one that shows this problem taking place because that'll help to follow the coding with. Should take me right to the problem

Then there's all the OTHER bugs that aren't AS critical but are still fairly nasty... like the one where Ambushers (presumably 'hidden units') don't appear to be getting vs Combat Class modifiers after making their first attack...

 

[zeinul]

Can you guys make this new stuff optional? So you could turn it on or off at the beginning of the game? You still can work on it, and people can play without this annoying bug.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll make this clear - apparently my post went in the wrong thread:
I believe I have a fix.

I need a savegame that I KNOW was showing the problem to prove it.

If you have a savegame where this problem takes place in the next round, post it please. Or if there's a particular repeatable formula that you're aware of with the current file set to force, lets say a Hunter, to lose his hunting sight for example, simply explain what needs to be done to get it to screw up so I can replicate the process.

If you posted a savegame to me earlier, please just let me know what it was named as by now its lost among a lot of these sort of downloads.