C2C: Promotions

3) The check is made passively each round. Each Law Enforcement unit gets a check, probably against a random local criminal unit (if there are multiple ones). A variety of results can stem from this check based on the degree of its success from initiating a same-tile combat, to pushing the enemy out a space, to forcing the enemy to flee back to the capital to simply finding more evidence and making the next check more likely, to the automatic destruction of the Criminal, to the arrest and interrogation of the criminal (with some options presented perhaps) etc...

I'm sure you won't ;), but don't forget that 'pushing [a crim] out a space' is certain death when your units can see them - even for an Assassin. (Unless it happens at the end of your turn, in which case it is redundant as they will just re-enter in theirs. They are also likely to do this in the unlikely event of them surviving your turn).

What's the sitch with the Warlord line? Would this also apply to them? I suppose a tough Warlord Captain or above might survive being ejected. Suggest there would need to be a "...and stay out" ie. cannot re-enter enforced on units that are expelled.
 
I'm sure you won't ;), but don't forget that 'pushing [a crim] out a space' is certain death when your units can see them - even for an Assassin. (Unless it happens at the end of your turn, in which case it is redundant as they will just re-enter in theirs. They are also likely to do this in the unlikely event of them surviving your turn).

What's the sitch with the Warlord line? Would this also apply to them? I suppose a tough Warlord Captain or above might survive being ejected. Suggest there would need to be a "...and stay out" ie. cannot re-enter enforced on units that are expelled.

Yeah, we'll have to think something out for the warlords. If they aren't there on a diplomatic mission then I don't see why they'd be allowed in in the first place anyhow.

And yes, that 'certain death' is a big part of the severity of that result. It simply means they'd have to be chased down by something else and realize that it would afford a slight chance of survival if the dogs had been eliminated from the city and thus he couldn't be seen once he left the city. But it would only be one among many severe potential results.
 
How about instead of just pushing the criminal out of the city tile, that instead there are 3 possible outcomes: 1) He remains undiscovered; 2) He 'escapes' and is teleported to the nearest city belonging to his owner; 3) He is 'executed' or 'jailed'
 
I think the current situation is just fine and does not need to be adjusted. All this "extra" stuff is just clutter.

If a rogue, etc, makes it into your city and you did not detect or stop it Before it got in then you just have to wait it out and you got what you deserved from being inattentive. It will eventually leave and you nail it then if you can. If you have not learned to station dogs strategically that is your game play problem and not the rogue's design fault.

We don't need to keep adding layers because players are getting lazy over border vigilance. This kind of over kill reaction is dragging down the Mod's playability and sustainability too impo.

JosEPh
 
I think the current situation is just fine and does not need to be adjusted. All this "extra" stuff is just clutter.

If a rogue, etc, makes it into your city and you did not detect or stop it Before it got in then you just have to wait it out and you got what you deserved from being inattentive. It will eventually leave and you nail it then if you can. If you have not learned to station dogs strategically that is your game play problem and not the rogue's design fault.

We don't need to keep adding layers because players are getting lazy over border vigilance. This kind of over kill reaction is dragging down the Mod's playability and sustainability too impo.

JosEPh

1. Vigilance currently doesn't work, as he can enter even if you can see him. He can then leave and re-enter every turn... etc.
2. The border could be one tile from your city, so he can cross it and enter in one move. (Before/without Open Borders, so only your HNs can get him before he does so - and that is often a suicide mission for them).

Effective so-called vigilance means keeping one military unit in each tile adjacent to every city. You may call that vigilance - I call it "crazy".

If you can see an enemy unit, you should be able to do something about it. We hold this truth to be self-evident...;) At the very least, the Rogue should be challenged before entering a city that has dogs or Ambushers.
 
Totally disagree. Effective vigilance is judicious use of blocking units.

If you can see him approach you can take him out, vigilance does work. Your dog unit with tracking promo can see him 3 tiles away.

Just because you see him is that supposed to stop him? No I don't think so. You must go out and meet him. So what if the border is 1 tile away, you saying you can't see him if he's across the border? Or that you can't or won't touch him? Really? You can't or won't build your own rogues?

This is all unnecessary. If he does get in he will eventually leave. That is fact. You take your lumps for letting him in, however he got in, and then you deal with him when he leaves. Plain and very simple.

JosEPh
 
How about instead of just pushing the criminal out of the city tile, that instead there are 3 possible outcomes: 1) He remains undiscovered; 2) He 'escapes' and is teleported to the nearest city belonging to his owner; 3) He is 'executed' or 'jailed'
I don't blame you for this response since just reading the previous post may have been misconstruable. If you look at the post where I detail the plan in more detail a few posts before that one you'll see all 3 of those and more are being considered as a possible reaction to a successful check.

I think the current situation is just fine and does not need to be adjusted. All this "extra" stuff is just clutter.

If a rogue, etc, makes it into your city and you did not detect or stop it Before it got in then you just have to wait it out and you got what you deserved from being inattentive. It will eventually leave and you nail it then if you can. If you have not learned to station dogs strategically that is your game play problem and not the rogue's design fault.

We don't need to keep adding layers because players are getting lazy over border vigilance. This kind of over kill reaction is dragging down the Mod's playability and sustainability too impo.

JosEPh
I'm surprised you're complaining about 'Extra Stuff' in a mod that strives to have as much meaningful 'extra stuff' as it can. That aside, I feel there's a definite game design strategy in this proposal that goes a few steps beyond just this plan alone.

Consider this:
1) We don't want to have anything in the mod be completely one dimensional. If policing units only reduce crime and offer some minor defensive measure when the city is attacked, then the promotions have very little ability to differentiate them into differing roles. One should want Law Enforcement units for more than one role (being reducing crime since as a civilian it really should be a fodder unit against military trained soldiers.) Adding such a feature enhances it's utility.

2) Currently there is an odd disconnect between Law Enforcement and Criminal units. One rarely ever finds itself into conflict (conflict being the basis of story, story being the basis of providing an entertaining experience, and an entertaining experience being what we wish to provide) with the other. Yet shouldn't they be obvious polar opposites? Shouldn't they be mortal enemies and capable of conflicting with each other in a whole new and unique way to enhance the depth we're bringing to the game? Wouldn't it be nice to offer, in such a mechanism, a specialized new 'flavor' of conflict that the game currently does not provide, while not overriding the natures of the conflicts it already does?

3) Such a mechanism has some added future benefits by being able to provide more mechanics along a similar line of thought, thus playing on the new yet familiar.

4) This mechanism would also add further developable dimension to our Criminal lines... they have a lot already but if they want to be one type of operative or another will be really shapable by differing promo selections.

5) This would be easier for the AI to work effectively as guiding promotion choices can be an easier affair than getting the balance in unit selections calibrated effectively. Not all cities of the AI even maintain dog units. This makes the current ability of rogues to hideout in cities more exploitable by the player than the AI.

6) Honestly... how much complexity would this really add? Seems pretty simple cut and dry to me though can offer some interesting choices along the way.

7) I feel that if we don't offer more variety in the game experience the enormity of C2C can easily cause the enjoyability to implode as it becomes, round by round, just more of the same sorts of choices. It's GOT to be intriguing on an almost every round basis or the many rounds to complete a game become far too routine. This plan takes that into consideration fully by attempting to create a lot of variety of possibilities that can take place.

Ah well... I know not all will agree with these assessments and assertions and that's fine. I've never felt C2C was anywhere near a development stage of putting on the breaks and getting it to simply focus on streamlining and smoothing over its rough spots. It's fun... but its not nearly diverse enough yet.
 
@TB

I agree with ya there is so much potential we could do with Crime from both the Law Keepers and Criminals. The stuff you say is not implemented yet, not because its not wanted, but because no one has spend the time do make it yet.

I think that is one if the things that I try to get people to understand, C2C is a work in progress. that means not everything is made yet and just because something is the way it now doesn't mean it will stay that way. This is why I get frustrated when people want to start balancing things. its like trying to "count your chickens before they hatch".

Note that's not to say we should not attempt to keep things balanced as we go along, but we also have to realize that major parts of the mod are still unfinished such as the whole disease mod, most of the Trans-Human and Galactic eras, not to mention things like the combat mod, multi-maps and the nomad mod.

Any who keep up the great work and ideas. :goodjob:
 
I voiced my dissent because I feel there are more Important things to work on than this.

You all are the modders and you'll do what you want. That's just the way it is. I'm only speaking up because I see this as a rabbit trail that detracts from getting the very areas Hydro speaks of fleshed out.

Run rabbit run, go dig another hole, it's your trail.

JosEPh
 
I voiced my dissent because I feel there are more Important things to work on than this.

You all are the modders and you'll do what you want. That's just the way it is. I'm only speaking up because I see this as a rabbit trail that detracts from getting the very areas Hydro speaks of fleshed out.

Run rabbit run, go dig another hole, it's your trail.

JosEPh

Well... I suppose you have a point that there's just as or more important projects on the plate as it is - that's why its not the highest priority of development that it's getting full attention and work on it NOW. Because yes, agreed, the mod CAN exist fine without it and for now just having to maintain vigilance is strategically interesting as well. But I certainly don't think it'll detract from the game once its in place and would add another enjoyable layer of intrigue to play is all I'm arguing.
 
As a suggestion, I mentioned "friendly city spies" before. Maybe this could be a simple way to implement criminal ousting - either give the ability to spies, or introduce a new "Detective"/"Enforcer" style unit to directly affect friendly cities.

Alternatively, if you want to introduce unit promotion path differentiation for Law Enforcement units, you could split the criminal-adds-to-crime-in-city into a separate value. This value would be increased by their own promotions (as currently), and Law Enforcement units would have a separate promotion that would reduce/nullify it. For example:

Level 1 rogue, no promotions = 10 crime
Level 2 Law Enforcement, 1 promotion = reduce criminal crime by 7

Level 2 rogue, 1 promotion = 20 crime
Level 3 Law Enforcement, 2 promotions = reduce criminal crime by 14

And so on. The benefit is that this would affect ALL criminal units in the city. The downside is that the unit does not directly reduce crime in the city itself, or do anything to oust the rogue.
 
There seems to be a problem with the pirate (I, II and III) promotions. They give + strength and - coastal defence. However the penalties don't apply when the coast is tropical coast or polar coast. This results in a very unbalanced promotion.
 
There seems to be a problem with the pirate (I, II and III) promotions. They give + strength and - coastal defence. However the penalties don't apply when the coast is tropical coast or polar coast. This results in a very unbalanced promotion.

Could be an issue with ALL generic coast modifiers... not just that promo. Good point! I'll try to get right on that.
 
I could not replicate any problems with the town watch being denied access to the law enforcement promos but I'd still like to add the extra stages and spread them out among tech prereqs as previously planned anyhow.
 
Please don't. Otherwise we'll have to build many more (less efficient) TW earlier in the game. That's just more units clogging up the cities and not doing anything else.
 
Please don't. Otherwise we'll have to build many more (less efficient) TW earlier in the game. That's just more units clogging up the cities and not doing anything else.

+1

JosEPh
 
Which simply exposes a balance problem that will be problematic when adjusting to removing Great Military Trainer XP from benefiting Civilian units. Not to say that I don't agree that crime in many nations would become too intense after such an adjustment (in the early phases of the game anyhow.)

At some point it'll require a rebalancing either way. But I can at least wait until after the release.

So looking at the major sources of crime that enforce so many TW's to be built in the first place, I believe some of the trait sets are too strongly penalizing in this regard. But what else? How can we thin the crime a little bit to compensate? I suppose we should also keep in mind that we're pending some specialists that have the ability to reduce crime further.
 
Please don't. Otherwise we'll have to build many more (less efficient) TW earlier in the game. That's just more units clogging up the cities and not doing anything else.


1)What about the idea that your law enforcement units can join your city as a specialist that reduces crime (dependend on the promotions your unit had before joining?)? You would loose your city defending ability but there are a lot fewer units.

2)Or a simple "hide" option for them. Maybe with a "hide this unit" button. And a "show all hidden units on this tile" button (Hidden with the option, not invisible ones)

3)If you select "select all units" button in the city with the tribal guard, than all units except the tribal guard are selected. Would be great for the civilian units in the city. Or maybe a new button: "select all military units"
 
1)I don't think it'd be good balance practice to be able to 'train' a unit you can add to the city as a specialist. I'm not 100% sure but I think it'd be overly exploitable.

2)Hide from self? Could get a bit frustrating but I could also see the use. We may even be able to do something similar to this with a toggle button already on the screen - just add another option for 'show Military' and 'show Civilian' units.

3)I've been wanting a 'select all units by combat class' button for a while but though I could probably do it, it wouldn't be easily done. Still... would be helpful for workers and other issues.
 
Hiding your own units from yourself is self defeating, in that you probably will forget about them when it is time to upgrade. It also doesn't solve the issue of building many more of such units (to get the same effect) and hidden or not, they will add to the gold maintenance as well as the computer memory maintenance.
 
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