Californian Wildfires and Population

[Lexicus]

Local news coverage was making me angry. The rich whites are the only people who matter evidently

 

[hobbsyoyo]

In 2009 the Station Fire burned a quarter of the Angeles National Forest. It burned for seven weeks. It is unlikely the burn area will recover in my lifetime.

I do not get over excited about a fire just because it happens to catch the homes of a few people who never should have built there in the first place.

Are you saying the ecology of the forest won't survive or the economy of the local area? The ecology will recover, wildfires are a natural part of the life cycle of many areas and forests.

Local news coverage was making me angry. The rich whites are the only people who matter evidently

Huh? Can you elaborate?

 

[Lexicus]

Huh? Can you elaborate?

Sure. All the news coverage was of rich white people tearful about their gigantic multimillion dollar estates being burned up. Yawn. Don't care.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Are you saying the ecology of the forest won't survive or the economy of the local area? The ecology will recover, wildfires are a natural part of the life cycle of many areas and forests.

The way the forest ecology worked the low brush would burn regularly. The low brush is so flammable that fires would 'race' and the scrub oaks and pines would get scorched by the heat but it would pass fast enough that they usually didn't catch if they were healthy. So the fire clears the chaparral and removes the weak tress, allowing young trees to grow. By preventing regular burn offs we allowed the chaparral to get so thick that the fire couldn't race. It served as tinder and destroyed the old growth forest. Without the trees to provide shade the ground dries out and young trees can't get the start they need to develop the deep tap roots that allow them to survive the dry season. What used to be forest is likely to be replaced with sparse chaparral for decades, at least, if not forever.

 

[Cutlass]

Are you saying the ecology of the forest won't survive or the economy of the local area? The ecology will recover, wildfires are a natural part of the life cycle of many areas and forests.

This isn't necessarily true. In lands that don't have natural fires for too long and then get extremely severe fires the land itself can be damaged to the point where natural recovery doesn't take place.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sure. All the news coverage was of rich white people tearful about their gigantic multimillion dollar estates being burned up. Yawn. Don't care.

Those are the only people who can afford to live up in the canyons where fires generally threaten homes. The rest of us live out on the densely populated flats and don't have these problems...but we pay the bulk of the taxes that provide the outsized fire departments.

 

[Lexicus]

Those are the only people who can afford to live up in the canyons where fires generally threaten homes. The rest of us live out on the densely populated flats and don't have these problems...but we pay the bulk of the taxes that provide the outsized fire departments.

Well, of course. If the people who lived in the canyons had to pay taxes for the firefighters, they wouldn't be able to Create Jobs(tm).

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Not to get all ole-timey but this is a time to be generous in spirit and deed. The worst you can say about most of those affluent people is that they were favored by fortune in ways that were entirely out of their control. They can't help being born white or of means. Heaping scorn and taking glee in their loss does nothing to fix the very real problems of wealth inequality.

It also undermines the moral arguments in favor of the rich being compelled through taxes and the end of privilege to contribute more to society.

And honestly it's a **** move to piss on people who's homes are burning down and then shout about how little they pay in taxes. Do something to make them pay taxes but don't rub an act of god in their face as if it couldn't happen to you or yours.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I do think criticism about where they chose to build there homes is totally fair game though. I lived near Valmeyer, IL (famously wiped off the map in 93') and was disturbed at the sight of families that rebuilt on the same flood plain. That land is super fertile precisely because it floods so frequently and to make things worse, the government paid to relocate the town up the bluff. It's madness.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not to get all ole-timey but this is a time to be generous in spirit and deed. The worst you can say about most of those affluent people is that they were favored by fortune in ways that were entirely out of their control. They can't help being born white or of means. Heaping scorn and taking glee in their loss does nothing to fix the very real problems of wealth inequality.

It also undermines the moral arguments in favor of the rich being compelled through taxes and the end of privilege to contribute more to society.

And honestly it's a **** move to piss on people who's homes are burning down and then shout about how little they pay in taxes. Do something to make them pay taxes but don't rub an act of god in their face as if it couldn't happen to you or yours.

I would be more agreeable with this if the issue of wealthy people moving into the canyons and counting on fire protection they don't have to pay for were something new, but Californians have been fighting this fight for a very long time. It is very likely that those same people who are crying now have at some point cast a ballot that was influenced by this issue...and we know which way they voted.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I don't give them a pass for foolish and selfish decisions they have made. I just don't give anyone else a pass to be cruel and mean spirited about a tragedy either.

I use #Resistbot to send my congress critters and the governor letters to tell them to raise taxes every other week or so. It's stupid easy to do through text which is why I do it so often. It's basically twitter that gets emailed directly to them in the correct format.

If you're so passionate about fixing these inequalities then do something positive about it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't give them a pass for foolish and selfish decisions they have made. I just don't give anyone else a pass to be cruel and mean spirited about a tragedy either.

I use #Resistbot to send my congress critters and the governor letters to tell them to raise taxes every other week or so. It's stupid easy to do through text which is why I do it so often. It's basically twitter that gets emailed directly to them in the correct format.

If you're so passionate about fixing these inequalities then do something positive about it.

Okay. By the way, when I said "Californians have been fighting this fight for a long time" did you assume I've been sitting and watching?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

We also have to confront the reality that as LA county grows, more and more people are going to be pushed in the hills and canyons because of the lack of land. Our society incentivizes home ownership and it's hard to fault people for taking advantage of that and there's no where else left to build new homes.

We need to get serious about affordable, high-density housing in LA or we're going to end up with more suburban sprawl in unsuitable locations. The city itself is half the problem, I have read a bunch of articles that a lot of policies that were started with good intentions really hurt the market. Specifically, high rises have to have 2 car spots for every 2 bedroom apartment and a set amount of green space within them. That makes building new housing stupid expensive which causes most developers to go after the luxury market since they're in for an inflated build cost anyways.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

LOL I just emailed Mimi Walters to ***** at her again. Thanks for reminding me to do that.

Edit: You are/were a fire fighter? That's awesome!

 

[Lexicus]

I don't give them a pass for foolish and selfish decisions they have made. I just don't give anyone else a pass to be cruel and mean spirited about a tragedy either.

All the reporting I'm seeing says no one has died. If people had died, you would have a point. But at this moment in American history, the destruction of the property of the rich is, in my view, not a tragedy.

We also have to confront the reality that as LA county grows, more and more people are going to be pushed in the hills and canyons because of the lack of land. Our society incentivizes home ownership and it's hard to fault people for taking advantage of that and there's no where else left to build new homes.

We need to get serious about affordable, high-density housing in LA or we're going to end up with more suburban sprawl in unsuitable locations. The city itself is half the problem, I have read a bunch of articles that a lot of policies that were started with good intentions really hurt the market. Specifically, high rises have to have 2 car spots for every 2 bedroom apartment and a set amount of green space within them. That makes building new housing stupid expensive which causes most developers to go after the luxury market since they're in for an inflated build cost anyways.

Incidentally, portraying the rich who live in these areas as basically innocent victims is simplifying matters. Human geography is always part of a story about societies. In the US, it's not an exaggeration to say that human geography has been dominated by racism and class inequality.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I called them foolish and dumb, not innocent.

The farmers who rebuilt in old Valmeyer are also foolish and dumb but not rich. It's a universal affliction.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

LOL I just emailed Mimi Walters to ***** at her again. Thanks for reminding me to do that.

Edit: You are/were a fire fighter? That's awesome!

Well, no. I've been fighting the fight about keeping people from building in the canyons. Firefighters actually hate my side, because they generally like the abundant overtime in fire season.

We also have to confront the reality that as LA county grows, more and more people are going to be pushed in the hills and canyons because of the lack of land. Our society incentivizes home ownership and it's hard to fault people for taking advantage of that and there's no where else left to build new homes.

We need to get serious about affordable, high-density housing in LA or we're going to end up with more suburban sprawl in unsuitable locations. The city itself is half the problem, I have read a bunch of articles that a lot of policies that were started with good intentions really hurt the market. Specifically, high rises have to have 2 car spots for every 2 bedroom apartment and a set amount of green space within them. That makes building new housing stupid expensive which causes most developers to go after the luxury market since they're in for an inflated build cost anyways.

LA got off to a very bad sprawling start back when the only way people could think to deal with earthquakes preparedness was to stay close to the ground. How that has continued beyond its expiration date is part mystery and part money, mostly money.

Anyway, there is actually plenty of flat and undeveloped land in LA county. Come visit me and I will show you several hundred square miles of it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Not to get all ole-timey but this is a time to be generous in spirit and deed. The worst you can say about most of those affluent people is that they were favored by fortune in ways that were entirely out of their control. They can't help being born white or of means. Heaping scorn and taking glee in their loss does nothing to fix the very real problems of wealth inequality.

It also undermines the moral arguments in favor of the rich being compelled through taxes and the end of privilege to contribute more to society.

And honestly it's a **** move to piss on people who's homes are burning down and then shout about how little they pay in taxes. Do something to make them pay taxes but don't rub an act of god in their face as if it couldn't happen to you or yours.

The new tax bill has a clause that denies tax deductions for disasters caused by wildfires and earth quakes. I wonder how the California Reps will vote on that.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The new tax bill has a clause that denies tax deductions for disasters caused by wildfires and earth quakes. I wonder how the California Reps will vote on that.

My congressman will certainly vote for it. He is party first, last, and only.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Right but that's mostly beyond the mountains or far west in thebdesert. If people want to live in the city's orbit for work then those areas are too far.