Can Free Will Possibly Exist?

[puglover]

I don't believe so.

I've been thinking a lot about fate and predestination this week, and I've come to the point where I'm inclined to believe in complete determinism. To me, the concept of free will is an arrogant, almost foolish idea.

Think for a second about how much of who we are is based purely on genetics and living environment. If most psychologists are right, then a great majority of our habits are developed while we are still infants, simply by being placed in a specific environment. Think about if you were placed in the very same position as any number of historical dicators growing up, living the same experiences with the same genetics and the same influences. Do you really think you would grow up any differently?

This is a subject I really love discussing. Does anyone have any insights?

 

[Truronian]

The question cannot be answered and has no impact on our lives, so why bother asking it?

 

[LucyDuke]

Free will is pretty much an illusion. But that's good enough for me.

 

[Bill3000]

and I've come to the point where I'm inclined to believe in complete determinism.

Too bad the universe is not deterministic - that's been verified.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

No. Our actions are determined by our genetic makeup, which determines our brain's chemical makeup, and our upbringing. Consider that if the last 5 minutes were run again, with exactly the same stimuli, and you with the same mental state as beforehand, you would do precisely the same thing.

 

[punkbass2000]

It's complicated. Essentially it depends what you mean by free will. Time is illusory, so the idea of free will is a red herring ultimately. However, within the context of existence as we experience it, there is nothing but free will.

 

[puglover]

The question cannot be answered and has no impact on our lives, so why bother asking it?

To a Christian like me, it becomes eternally important.

Too bad the universe is not deterministic - that's been verified.

Verified, eh?

 

[Bill3000]

Time is illusory, so the idea of free will is a red herring ultimately.

Time is one of the dimensions of spacetime - it's just as real as space. Both space and time have an effect on matter - see General Relativity.

Verified, eh?

Yup! Quantum mechanics has been verified such that hidden variable theories which would allow a determinism under the nondeterministic nature of QM is inconsistent with reality. To say that the universe is ultimately deterministic is much like saying the earth is flat in this context - it's inconsistent with the evidence we have.

Of course, reality can still be deterministic on a larger scale, but it's ultimately nondeterministic. Heck, as a simple example, if you restarted the universe from the big bang, there is no guarentee that our galaxy will exist - because the seeds of galaxies (including coalesing of dark matter) were ultimately formed from quantum fluxuations in the initial state of the universe, and since they are quantum fluctuations and thus nondeterministic, there's no guarentee that the seed which would eventually lead to our galaxy will exist. Insert butterfly effect here.

Even though QM isn't a complete picture of reality, the major contenders for a Theory of Everthing are ultimately nondeterministic as well.

It's not my fault you don't know interesting stuff about the universe found through science. But cosmology is no longer a metaphysical issue - it's physical.

 

[Elrohir]

If free will doesn't exist, then I was destined to write this message, and destined to believe that it does. You can't know that free will exists, because you can't know that anything truly exists.

But I think it does, to a point. Some things we obviously can't control - I can't make the sun go nova just because I want it to. But I can choose to want it to, if I want to. (Which I don't) God can limit our free will and control parts of our lives, but much of it is controlled by us, because God chooses to give us that freedom.

 

[Truronian]

To a Christian like me, it becomes eternally important.

How? tench

 

[ArneHD]

Psychologically speaking, it is very unlikely, paticulary if you prefer the behaviourist or Biological perspective. Some free will if you follow Cognitive, and lots of free will if you follow the Humanistic.

Since I belive that the psychodynamic perspective is a lot of rubish, I am not going to include that, but if I were to include it, that would have been deterministic too.

 

[Mise]

I believe that free will CAN exist (and can do so independently of whether or not the universe is deterministic, incidentally).

Whether or not it does, I don't know. Since it can't be answered philosophically or scientifically (or rather, the answer depends entirely on one's definition of free will), I don't really care.

At the end of the day, I act as I act, and that's the only truth I care about.

 

[puglover]

How?

If Christians believe in free will, they ultimately believe in a paradox. If God created the universe, with complete foreknowledge of what would result, then ultimately the universe acts according to a purpose that he designed. In that case there can be no free will.

Therefore, to the Christian, the question of fate comes down to a question of how much God controls.

 

[punkbass2000]

Time is one of the dimensions of spacetime - it's just as real as space.

Indeed it is.

 

[Guangxi]

i dont really understand what free will is. where you pick what action to take? if so, yes we do have free will. who the bloody hell else is deciding what action we take?

 

[Masquerouge]

Well we certainly have the illusion of free will, and a pretty good one at that. And since we have no way of knowing the real deal, settling for the illusion is good enough for me.

 

[El_Machinae]

Bill, you're referencing both QM and GR in this thread, in order to make a point. However, they're contradictory theories and haven't been properly reconciled ...

 

[Perfection]

If Christians believe in free will, they ultimately believe in a paradox. If God created the universe, with complete foreknowledge of what would result, then ultimately the universe acts according to a purpose that he designed. In that case there can be no free will.

Here's where things get even crazier! How could God know what would happen without thinking out the totally of existance in his head? If he can't what's the difference between God's mental construct and physical reality?

 

[puglover]

Yup! Quantum mechanics has been verified such that hidden variable theories which would allow a determinism under the nondeterministic nature of QM is inconsistent with reality. To say that the universe is ultimately deterministic is much like saying the earth is flat in this context - it's inconsistent with the evidence we have.

Of course, reality can still be deterministic on a larger scale, but it's ultimately nondeterministic. Heck, as a simple example, if you restarted the universe from the big bang, there is no guarentee that our galaxy will exist - because the seeds of galaxies (including coalesing of dark matter) were ultimately formed from quantum fluxuations in the initial state of the universe, and since they are quantum fluctuations and thus nondeterministic, there's no guarentee that the seed which would eventually lead to our galaxy will exist. Insert butterfly effect here.

Even though QM isn't a complete picture of reality, the major contenders for a Theory of Everthing are ultimately nondeterministic as well.

So, the fact that chemical processes can occur seemingly at random necessarily means we have free will? That's not logically inferred.

It's not my fault you don't know interesting stuff about the universe found through science.

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[Bill3000]

Indeed it is.

Read the later part of my post. Both space and time has an effect on matter in General Relativity. Heck, the very fact that it affects the motion of matter means that it has a physical basis.

Of course, the problem is that you probably defined "illusion" in a such a way that it is an ineffective definiton.

So, the fact that random processes occuring chemically necessarily means we have free will? That's not logically inferred.

Nothing to do with chemicals, nor does it say anything about free will. All it's saying is that the universe is ultimately nondeterministic. I did not reply to your post about free will - just correcting you. It's also rather irrelevant when it comes to matters of the brain, as the scale of interactions in the brain are such that QM isn't needed, and thus it's approximately deterministic on a larger scale.

What's that supposed to mean?

Modern physics has a lot of philosophical implications. It's interesting stuff, though one has to tread carefully. The fact that the universe is ultimately nondetermistic is one of them.