Can Free Will Possibly Exist?

[scy12]

Yes. Questions about something in a total state (reality , truth ,free will( should be answered that such a thing can't exist but in relative terms everything exists.
More or less.

 

[azzaman333]

Either we have complete free will, or our will is controlled in such a way that we would never be able to figure out that we are being controlled.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't think either is true, actually. We clearly don't have complete free will, and we very well might discover how we're controlled.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Aneeshm, Im not sure if Ive ever achieved Asamprajnata Samadhi during the meditation, but I have 'experienced' brief moments of non thought. Which of course ends with 'Hey! I did it! Im not thinking!' Its hard to describe (probably impossible) what its like to be present, and yet not be thinking. Its not that youre 'dead' or gone, its more like...A blind person who's playing a trombone, very loudly and very badly, who stops and begins hearing the world class orchestra that was playing all around him the whole time.

edit: correction, maybe more like a blind and deaf person, who starts feeling the vibrations of the orchestra playing around him.

 

[punkbass2000]

That is ineffective, actually. Spacetime as a whole is not relative, so you cannot say that "space and time is relative and thus an illusion". The coordinate systems will change depending on the state you are in, but there is still an underlying structure in the change - thus it's not really effective to call it an illusion. To call space and time an illusion is like saying that something being solid is an illusion - it ruins the point of labelling something as an "illusion." Whether or not something is ultimately solid in all frames of reference is irrelevant to an effective definition of what solid is.

Now we're getting somewhere. It is an illusion that a rock, for example is solid. It is also an illusion the the rock is not solid. In reality, it is both.

Illusion is defined as a sensory distortion to what reality is, but you're essentially saying that reality is an illusion, which defeats the point.

I am not.

 

[punkbass2000]

Let's not forget that even though reality may be relative, it's still relatively REAL.

Indeed. This is why, when discussing free will, I refer to experience as we know it and not ultimate reality.

The word "relative" itself implies some real standard of measuring "reality" or "realness".

No it doesn't. The word "relative" implies a dichotomy of some nature. Wherever one conceives of dichotomy, one conceives illusion, because reality is not a dichotomy.

Here and now is real. Consciousness is real. The world at this point in time is real.

Yes.

 

[punkbass2000]

I think you should have put inverted commas around the "you", rather than the "choosing". It depends how you define "you"

EDIT: And "choosing"...

'To choose' is 'to create'.

 

[Goonie]

Yay for Hobbesian OPs!

 

[punkbass2000]

As I type, words appear in my mind and simultaneously my two fingers hunt and peck for the letters on the keyboard. Its just happening. You just think what you think from moment to moment and thats it. You arent 'choosing' what to think.

You are. By abdicating responsibility you relinquish control. In this context, the terms are synonymous. What you take responsibility for, you control; what you control, you are responsible for.

 

[punkbass2000]

Divine law works the same way. We are punished for evil actions to show the difference between good and evil, God being the personification of good. Knowing this difference and choosing good is the way to enlightenment.

Actually, you punish yourself.

 

[punkbass2000]

I don't think either is true, actually. We clearly don't have complete free will, and we very well might discover how we're controlled.

It is this thought which limits your free will.

 

[punkbass2000]

Aneeshm, Im not sure if Ive ever achieved Asamprajnata Samadhi during the meditation, but I have 'experienced' brief moments of non thought. Which of course ends with 'Hey! I did it! Im not thinking!' Its hard to describe (probably impossible) what its like to be present, and yet not be thinking. Its not that youre 'dead' or gone, its more like...A blind person who's playing a trombone, very loudly and very badly, who stops and begins hearing the world class orchestra that was playing all around him the whole time.

edit: correction, maybe more like a blind and deaf person, who starts feeling the vibrations of the orchestra playing around him.

It is interesting, isn't it? To sense as usual without labeling everything which you notice.

 

[Kyriakos]

Have you ever watched a human pyramid?
The base is consisting of many people, but as you go higher there are fewer and fewer, and ultimately there is only one, standing on top of the shoulders of two others.
You could claim that the circus artist on top can move freely, and to a degree that is true. He can move his hands considerably, his legs not so much. The insinct of survival hinders his movement even more, since if he takes a step forward he will fall below.
Likewise the immediate level of consciousness is built upon many other levels, with the effect that you cannot actually move towards all directions. It is just that the design is more complicated, and therefore here a simple movement of one finger for that circus artist would allow nearly infinite movements in one's world of thought.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You are. By abdicating responsibility you relinquish control. In this context, the terms are synonymous. What you take responsibility for, you control; what you control, you are responsible for.

Im not talking about the outer structures of thought that build up our personlity and which we use to interact with each other and our environment. Those are thoughts which have already been scooped up in a net, processed, and put to work manning the ramparts.

Im talking about the raw thought, or consciousness that wells up on its own, far away and out of sight, deep down in the cistern of the castle.

Please excuse the corn, I havent had enough caffeine yet.

 

[punkbass2000]

Im not talking about the outer structures of thought that build up our personlity and which we use to interact with each other and our environment. Those are thoughts which have already been scooped up in a net, processed, and put to work manning the ramparts.

Im talking about the raw thought, or consciousness that wells up on its own, far away and out of sight, deep down in the cistern of the castle.

I know what you're talking about. You have as much control over it as you choose. Simply be responsible for it. It is done unto you as you believe.

 

[warpus]

You are. By abdicating responsibility you relinquish control. In this context, the terms are synonymous. What you take responsibility for, you control; what you control, you are responsible for.

There have been studies done suggesting that all of our decisions are made in the subconscious - but that we are sometimes free to override these decisions in our conscious.

This is interesting, because if that is true.. then we don't really have control.. it's kind of like we're sitting there and watching oureselves do stuff.. then if we disagree with something we're about to do - we can override it.

Is this true free will? In a way, I suppose, but not in the way most people would think.

 

[punkbass2000]

It is. Most people don't want as much free will as they have, as it means responsibility. The abdication of responsibility is the primary problem of 99.9% of the population. God wants for each and every one of you, first and foremost, to take responsibility for yourself. Unfortunately, most religions (and other societal institutions) encourage the exact opposite.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I know what you're talking about. You have as much control over it as you choose. Simply be responsible for it. It is done unto you as you believe.

I think that we are responsible for what we do with our consciousness but not consciousness itself. Raw consciousness is chaotic, practically meaningless. We take this raw material and then forge it into coherent thought that we can understand. Thats the part of the consciousness assembly line that we control.

 

[punkbass2000]

I think that we are responsible for what we do with our consciousness but not consciousness itself.

Then that is what you will experience.

Raw consciousness is chaotic, practically meaningless. We take this raw material and then forge it into coherent thought that we can understand. Thats the part of the consciousness assembly line that we control.

Consciousness is zero-dimensional.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Then that is what you will experience.

Do you mean that whatever it is that we believe, thats what we experience?

Consciousness is zero-dimensional.

Help me out, Ive been flipping through my 'Punkbass To Bozo Dictionary' but I cant find anything