Can Free Will Possibly Exist?

[punkbass2000]

Do you mean that whatever it is that we believe, thats what we experience?

Yes. Things happen as you believe. For the most part you (you in the plural sense) create unconsciously and submit to the global consciousness. As you realize this and begin creating consciously you will begin to realize your power. Insomuch as you believe you do not have control over what occurs to you, you do not. A kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Help me out, Ive been flipping through my 'Punkbass To Bozo Dictionary' but I cant find anything

To be zero-dimensional is to be limitless in time and space.

 

[warpus]

It is. Most people don't want as much free will as they have, as it means responsibility. The abdication of responsibility is the primary problem of 99.9% of the population. God wants for each and every one of you, first and foremost, to take responsibility for yourself. Unfortunately, most religions (and other societal institutions) encourage the exact opposite.

This isn't about religion, this is how our brains are wired and how they work. or at least if this theory is right..

By analogy, as far as freewill is concerned, you are like the web browser. You take in light and sound as input and you "see" pictures and "hear" sounds. But these pictures and sounds are merely the activity of your brain, which is a computer. What you see and hear is not voluntary.

At this point you might say, hold on! We direct our eyes. This is not true, eye movements have been shown to be involuntary. When we scan a painting, our eyes can only perceive a tiny portion of that painting at any one moment. So the eyes scan the painting. This "scanning" is subconscious, not affected by our conscious will.

But, with effort, if we "think" about it, intuitively we believe that we can control what our eyes do. "If I want to look to my left, then I will look to my left". But what is really going on here? Is your conscious mind making the decision of where to direct your eyes or is your subconscious telling your conscious mind where to look? After the event the conscious mind might "think" it made the decision, but there is no evidence for this. Instead experiments using brain scans tell us that our decisions are made before we become conscious of having made them!

found this here

The most intriguing point here is this: our decisions are made before we become conscious of having made them!

Libet found that the unconscious brain activity leading up to the conscious decision by the subject to flick his or her wrist began approximately half a second before the subject consciously felt that she had decided to move.[57][58] Libet's findings suggest that decisions made by a subject are first being made on a subconscious level and only afterward being translated into a "conscious decision", and that the subject's belief that it occurred at the behest of her will was only due to her retrospective perspective on the event.

linky

To be zero-dimensional is to be limitless in time and space.

A zero-dimensional object does not exist in time-space.

 

[punkbass2000]

This isn't about religion, this is how our brains are wired and how they work. or at least if this theory is right..

No, not about religion per se.

A zero-dimensional object does not exist in time-space.

PO-TAY-TO, PO-TAH-TO.

 

[warpus]

PO-TAY-TO, PO-TAH-TO.

1. A 0 dimensional object is limitless in space-time
2. A 1 dimensional object is limitless in 2 dimensional space-time

Either both of these statements are correct or they are both false. If they are both true, then that isn't saying much anyway.. as any x dimensional object will by definition be limitless in any x+n dimensional space (n being a positive integer).. so depends on what you mean by limitless, I suppose, but it can't possibly mean anything useful.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Yes. Things happen as you believe. For the most part you (you in the plural sense) create unconsciously and submit to the global consciousness. As you realize this and begin creating consciously you will begin to realize your power. Insomuch as you believe you do not have control over what occurs to you, you do not. A kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Generally speaking I dont disagree with that, but the individual does have certain limits. Or else there would be no such thing as individuals. We come with 'default settings' of belief. Or unique markings and characteristics left by the craftsman. Yes, I watch Antiques Roadshow.

edit: btw, ok, I got it. Zero dimensional = Thought

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Warpus, as far as the 'subconscious' goes, its the new God of the Gaps. Wheres this 'subconscious'? Has anyone ever seen or measured a 'subconscious'? No. Its no less 'religious' than the concept of the soul. 'Subconscious' ultimately is just a different label for the same old thing.

 

[Perfection]

It's non scientific speculation is what it is.

How so? Because I don't demand absolute proof for nondeterminism?

Untill we have some way of confirming exactly what a wave function is or even if it exists this is still just a thought experiment.

Why exactly do you say that? Given how well wavefunctions model reality I think denying them isn't the best idea.

And one which is heavilly criticised in some circles. You should stop believeing everything you are taught is 100% true. That's not scientific, take nobodies word for it.

I don't take everything as 100% truth, but I do take expert opinion as the closest thing to truth that I'll probably get so I listen to it.

Exactly why Einstein did the EPR paradox experiment, that was the point, amongst other inconsistencies with relativity.

You're talking about that "spooky action at a distance" stuff not information transfer.

No but like most students you talk as if it's already a lock down, when in essence you don't have the scientific know how to even make that claim let alone prove it.

So? I don't claim to have proof, just a knowledge of what is currently accepted

No it isn't it's deterministic.

Yes, but for any practical application involving the perspective of one self you treat it like it's nondeterministic. You don't know which universe "you" will end up in.

That's probably why you wouldn't make a very good theoretical physicist, too busy sitting inside the envelope asking for someone to close it and pigeon hole you. You really should try reading around about physics, it always seems to me your just repeating what you've learnt with out taking the time to involve yourself with the other ideas in physics. But then that's your choice.

No, the reason I wouldn't make a good theoretical physicist is I'm not trained to be one. If I was trained to be one I wouldn't need to appeal to consensus of the scientifc community on issues like these, but until I am I see no reason to not go with what the experts say.

I've done this before and I'm bored of repeating myself. Because I just do.

Last time we had this debate I said I'd argue on the side of determinism for s*i*s and giggles. So I am.

Since I've already done why Quantum mechanics suggests free will, why bother saying it again. Go search down the last discussion it's all there in detail.

Is it still half-baked ideas with little support from the scientific community

Socrates would be proud

Of me!

 

[El_Machinae]

The most intriguing point here is this: our decisions are made before we become conscious of having made them!

There's a new buzzword: "Free Won't". A few studies hint that actions are offered to our conscious minds, and that we then have the freedom to veto the action. We don't decide to do something, we more decide to not do something until a proper alternative is offered.

Warpus, as far as the 'subconscious' goes, its the new God of the Gaps. Wheres this 'subconscious'? Has anyone ever seen or measured a 'subconscious'? No. Its no less 'religious' than the concept of the soul. 'Subconscious' ultimately is just a different label for the same old thing.

Not really, many areas of the subconscious can be mapped with even older brain-mapping activities. In a loose sense, the subconscious is where the consciousness isn't. The subconscious parts of our brains are often independantly acting, and then bring attention to themselves when certain conditions are met* (and other times, we specifically delve into subconscious areas). We need to get past Freudian concepts, because they're not really conducive to understanding modern neuroscience.

*

Spoiler :

You were subconsciously aware of how cold your feet are, until you read this sentence. If there was a problem with your feet, you would have been made aware. This paragraph also made you aware, though it does not have anything directly to do with stimuli coming from your feet

 

[punkbass2000]

Generally speaking I dont disagree with that, but the individual does have certain limits. Or else there would be no such thing as individuals. We come with 'default settings' of belief. Or unique markings and characteristics left by the craftsman. Yes, I watch Antiques Roadshow.

To a degree, yes. You have created your 'self' with given limitations. You can choose to rid yourself of them, of course. But yes, in order to be something you must have things which you are not. The art of life is to accept that all paths are valid and still choose the ones which define your 'self'.

edit: btw, ok, I got it. Zero dimensional = Thought

No. Thought is one-dimensional. It is linear. Consciousness is not thought.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Not really, many areas of the subconscious can be mapped with even older brain-mapping activities. In a loose sense, the subconscious is where the consciousness isn't. The subconscious parts of our brains are often independantly acting, and then bring attention to themselves when certain conditions are met* (and other times, we specifically delve into subconscious areas). We need to get past Freudian concepts, because they're not really conducive to understanding modern neuroscience.

What youre observing and mapping is the physical functioning of the brain, not a mysterious form of unseen consciousness.

 

[Rossiya]

Do you believe in the concept of free will?

Something's telling me to say no...

 

[warpus]

Warpus, as far as the 'subconscious' goes, its the new God of the Gaps. Wheres this 'subconscious'? Has anyone ever seen or measured a 'subconscious'? No. Its no less 'religious' than the concept of the soul. 'Subconscious' ultimately is just a different label for the same old thing.

What? Has anyone ever seen or measured a 'conscious'?

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't real. Your credibility in this discussion has just been lowered by several degrees, Bozo.

No. Thought is one-dimensional. It is linear. Consciousness is not thought.

Seems to me like what you are doing here is nothing more than a Birdjaguaresque/timecubesque appeal to mumbo jumbo.

Cheese is 5 dimensional. I win!

 

[punkbass2000]

I'm not appealing to anything. If you can show me the space which thought occupies I'll be rather impressed. If you can show me how to think things without any time elapsing, I'll also be impressed. Please present any objections rather than making non-sequiturs.

 

[warpus]

I'm not appealing to anything. If you can show me the space which thought occupies I'll be rather impressed. If you can show me how to think things without any time elapsing, I'll also be impressed. Please present any objections rather than making non-sequiturs.

You're the one making outlandish claims; I have made no claims about thoughts whatsoever.

You make the claim, you back it up.

 

[punkbass2000]

Please present what you find outlandish, then, and why.

 

[aneeshm]

Seems to me like what you are doing here is nothing more than a Birdjaguaresque/timecubesque appeal to mumbo jumbo.

Cheese is 5 dimensional. I win!

Actually, he's right.

Thought is not consciousness, because it is one of the objects of consciousness. That is, we are conscious of thought, so it is not consciousness itself.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No. Thought is one-dimensional. It is linear. Consciousness is not thought.

Hmmm...Thought is consciousness made linear. That works, I think. We make it linear when we pump it through our irrigation ditches.

What? Has anyone ever seen or measured a 'conscious'?

Yes. We experience being conscious, but nobody has ever experienced the subconscious.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't real.

We're on the same page there, at least.

Your credibility in this discussion has just been lowered by several degrees, Bozo.

Dont look at me. It was you who said to Punkbass that the discussion isnt about religion, and then posted a quote about the subconscious mind. Youre the one who's made a conscious link between the two, Im merely commenting on it.

 

[punkbass2000]

Hmmm...Thought is consciousness made linear. That works, I think. We make it linear when we pump it through our irrigation ditches.

As you mentioned, you've experienced consciousness without thought, even if only briefly. Personally, I find it very easy to do. I can stop thinking as easily as I can close my eyes. (Awaits detractors to hit on this )

 

[warpus]

Actually, he's right.

Thought is not consciousness, because it is one of the objects of consciousness. That is, we are conscious of thought, so it is not consciousness itself.

I am not disputing that, I am disputing the 0-dimensional claim.

Yes. We experience being conscious, but nobody has ever experienced the subconscious.

You do every night when you dream.

Dont look at me. It was you who said to Punkbass that the discussion isnt about religion, and then posted a quote about the subconscious mind. Youre the one who's made a conscious link between the two, Im merely commenting on it.

You make it sound as though the subconscious was a crazy idea perpetrated by crazy psychologists. It's not. It is a well accepted idea, especially amongst experts in the field.. psychologists.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You do every night when you dream.

Do you believe that dreams are messages from the subconscious mind, to the conscious mind?

Never mind the fact that if you experience something and are conscious of it, theres nothing 'sub' about it.

You make it sound as though the subconscious was a crazy idea perpetrated by crazy psychologists. It's not. It is a well accepted idea, especially amongst experts in the field.. psychologists.

Its not a crazy idea at all. All Im saying is that for the most part, psychology is very much like a secular religion, in many respects.