Can Israel join the EU in the future?

Can Israel join the EU?


  • Total voters
    109
Hotpoint said:
Slightly O/T but it should be pointed out that although Israel may be thought of as right-wing in some terms, much of its domestic internal politics are actually far closer to the European norm than some might think.

For instance look at the number of Prime Ministers that have come from the Social Democratic leaning Labor Party.

If you take away the Palestinan question Israel would actually be to the left of many EU states.

You are right, the Labor party in Israel is an big and important influence. And Israel is a welfare state. But it isn't about if Israel is left or right, it's about the feeling they have of being unfairly treated by the EU.

For instance Europe support to have "the wall" declared illegal by the ICC. The initiative in Belgium to charge Sharon for war crimes. The reprimande all of Europe's leaders gave when Israel killed an important Hamas figure. Those are all signs of the lack of European support mainwhile Arafat was treated like a real statesman by many European states.

Those things makes the avarage Israeli feel like Europe is treating them unfairly. So I think support for joining the EU will be quite low.
 
Drunk Master said:
You are right, the Labor party in Israel is an big and important influence. And Israel is a welfare state. But it isn't about if Israel is left or right, it's about the feeling they have of being unfairly treated by the EU.

For instance Europe support to have "the wall" declared illegal by the ICC. The initiative in Belgium to charge Sharon for war crimes. The reprimande all of Europe's leaders gave when Israel killed an important Hamas figure. Those are all signs of the lack of European support mainwhile Arafat was treated like a real statesman by many European states.

Those things makes the avarage Israeli feel like Europe is treating them unfairly. So I think support for joining the EU will be quite low.

I think this feeling is very irrational. Europeans aren't anti-semitic, just don't support Israel's policy as much as the United States. Maybe their feelings are the result of medial propaganda against EU.

I guess we have to wait for some Israeli CFC member to clarify this matter.
 
Winner said:
Geography: Irrelevant, please realize that geographically there is no Europe. Europe is only the Asian peninsula ;)

Europe exists, whatever it's a real continent or just a peninsula of Eurasia. You're playing on words.

Winner said:
Political: Actually, Israel's political system is more similar to the continental-European one than for example British ;)

I was referring to the political position, not the system. They're much to close from the US. We allready have UK, I don't want another trojan horse.

Winner said:
Was the Roman Empire only the city of Rome? ;)
I think the word "Europe" means just a cultural sphere.

Are you serious !? You can't compare a military build empire of ancient times with a democratically build union of modern times. Sure, their culture is close, but it doesn't close the geographical gap and the difference of point of view on a lot of problems.

Winner said:
Yes, why not? After they have functional democracy and working market economy and share values of peace and freedom, I won't have any problem with their membership.

Then why not accepting the US, Brasil, South Africa, India, Canada,... ? ;)
 
MaisseArsouye said:
Europe exists, whatever it's a real continent or just a peninsula of Eurasia. You're playing on words.

No, I am not. There is no sense in arguing against some country with geography.

I was referring to the political position, not the system. They're much to close from the US. We allready have UK, I don't want another trojan horse.

Trojan horse? A bit strong expression, IMO.

Are you serious !? You can't compare a military build empire of ancient times with a democratically build union of modern times.

OK, let's find another example: United States of America (+Hawaii?), France (French Guyana?), United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Falklands? South Georgia?), Australian Union (Tasmania?). This time you are playing on words ;)

Sure, their culture is close, but it doesn't close the geographical gap and the difference of point of view on a lot of problems.

European Union isn't only in Europe already. Face it.

Then why not accepting the US, Brasil, South Africa, India, Canada,... ? ;)
Good question. Maybe because they don't want to join? ;)
 
Winner said:
There is no sense in arguing against some country with geography.

Why ? It's perfectly relevant. European Union should only include states having parts of their territory in Europe. There are others conditions, but this one is important too.

Winner said:
Trojan horse? A bit strong expression, IMO.

I think this is the perfect expression. With Israël in, it would be much more difficult to have a united foreign policy. And I think "difficult" is an euphemism. I just don't understand how such a pro-european as you doens't see it.

Winner said:
European Union isn't only in Europe already. Face it.

Where did you read I don't face it ? I didn't expect this from you, Winner :(

I know the EU has lot of territories outside Europe. Actually, 5 members states have : UK, France, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain. This is the result of colonialism. It's not logical, it should/could change. It's not because there's something illogical we have to go further in that way ;)
 
Since I was the someone who suggested that Israel could well join the EU in the future, I'll stick to my words.

The Gerographic argument is irrelevant, Europe is completely artificial and arbitrary from that stand point. What matters is culture, and culturally Israel is very close to the EU and the West in general. After all, Israel is the product of an european ideology.

I think many europeans have a very twisted view of Israel; while it's true that they could improve in certain fields, the fact is many europeans consider them as bad as the palestinian militant groups, and that is outrageous. It's understandable that Israel feels suspicious about the EU, though I'm certain that if presented the offer to join the economic benefits would outweight the suspicion.

Also, Israel has alot to offer to the EU. They have one of the leading scientific sectors in the world, and they also produce some of the most sophisticated military equipment in the globe.
 
MaisseArsouye said:
Why ? It's perfectly relevant. European Union should only include states having parts of their territory in Europe. There are others conditions, but this one is important too.

Just out of interest, how do you think Europe got to be called so?
 
There's no a priori reason that Israel couldn't join. The formal criteria are democracy, which I'd think Israel already fulfills nicely, certain economic benchmarks, that certainly could be achieved (especially if the Is/Pal conflict ceased to depress the economy), and being "European", the last being subject to the sovereign interpretation of the EU itself. Letting Cyprus in pretty much sank the geographic argument. If both sides wanted to, Israel could join pretty soon. Not even the unresolved Is/Pal conflict need stop it; we took in Cyprus with its conflict unresolved.

But there is little sign either side wants Israel to join. Israelis tend, with some justification, be suspicious of the EU bloc. EUropeans don't tend to look very favourably on Israel. Economically, EU entry would probably be good for Israel's exports, but it would matter little to us - Israel accounts for a fraction of our external trade. And it would ruin all possibility of the EU acting as a "neutral broker" in the ME. In fact, I'm hard pressed to see any considerable advantages at all for us in letting Israel in.

As for being in the driver's seat in the ME, that's not where I want to be if/when the whole equipage crashes into a wall.
 
Drunk Master said:
For instance Europe support to have "the wall" declared illegal by the ICC. The initiative in Belgium to charge Sharon for war crimes. The reprimande all of Europe's leaders gave when Israel killed an important Hamas figure. Those are all signs of the lack of European support mainwhile Arafat was treated like a real statesman by many European states.

Those things makes the avarage Israeli feel like Europe is treating them unfairly. So I think support for joining the EU will be quite low.
It's not a wall, it's a fence. Walls keep people in, fences keep people out.
 
Sh3kel said:
It's not a wall, it's a fence. Walls keep people in, fences keep people out.

Yeah I know that. 90% of it is a fence. But in the media it's called "the wall". And it's shows that that thing is working seeing the lower number of attacks since it has been build.

But what do you think about how the avarage Israeli (whatever that is) percieves the European union. Do you think Israelis want to be a member? Or do they feel a little hostile to the union?
 
Personally and subjectively I would be against an union.
The whole concept of the Israeli state was to be a homeland for jews regarldess of prior nationality and as such we have an openly and expressed bias for Jews. If you've had your foreskin cut off at age 8 days, regardless of where you are, you're elligible for an Israeli passport. Good luck acquiring one anyway else.

We're openly biased and encourage only Jewish immigration to Israel because this is the only place where the jewish community is a majority. We're not a big religion, we're not a big people and we're not a big country, which contributes to a somewhat repressed and cultural feeling of paranoia - if we're not the majority, the "goyim" will arrive and raze our villages and rape our women while shaving our beards and mocking our traditions.
Joining in the EU with the current demoraphic trends going the way they're going will be akin of the Israeli government stepping into an Arab league - the Arab and Muslim population of the EU is only going one way, and that's up.
There's no point in denying it since there has been a rapidly increasing trend of extremist parties leaning more towards xenophobia than towards acceptance and the European welfare state is being reformed in ways that may require structural changes not applicable to an openly-racist state such as Israel.

The European Union thus presents several challenges the Israeli people should not have to confront - first and foremost, the "Lost tribe" dillema. If tomorrow we were to discover a tribe of Jews in Ethiopia, at the current political situation we'd be free to do as we please and bring them into Israel at the expense of any other immigrant we choose. Under the EU, economical and political factors would influence our decision, and thus the establishment of the "Home for all Jews" would basically become morally bankrupt. How can we call ourselves an open haven for all Jews when we have to ask the French if they'd kindly encourage some of their richest memebers of society to uproot and move over?

A second problematic issue would be that of inadecuate changes to conform with the EU's demands. In the case of Turkey, the military was asked to stop being a major influence in the life of the country. Politically speaking, this is a true and absolute value which should be preserved - keep your guns unloaded and your watchmen at the enemy, not the government. culturally speaking? The military in turkey has stopped at least two violent revolutions by extremists and has stopped Turkey from slipping into a Islamo-facist state numerous times, and in fact it has even contributed to the existance of modern day Turkey. Israel also has several important cultural-specific traits which do not conform with European mentality and logic - we're not a logical people, we're extremely paranoid and sensitive. Asking us to implement some changes "because it should be done" is akin to barking orders in English to an Australian bushman - we just don't speak the same cultural language. Everyone who's ever been here is impressed, for better and worse, from our ability to jury-rig everything - it's gotten to the point a while back we manufactured cars out of fiberglass. Even though that experiment failed (mainly because camels would eat the chassis. true story.), the Israeli mentality of sticking things together with duct tape and a rubber band and praying it'll work is something which goes from as low as fixing engine parts to as high as political parties - this is the only country in the world that had no functional government because the leader of the oposition party refused to enter negotations unless he was offered the title of "Vice-Acting Prime Minister", meaning that if the PM and his replacing minister both got killed he'd replace them. We fix everything with patches and live in a reality where long term plans are 4-hours long.

A third major point of difference between us is based on our highly militaristic society. We've been involved in every major type of armed conflict since 1948, and have even pioneered new forms of warfare. The army and Ministry of Defense employs, directly and indirectly, more than 10% of our population at any given time. Every male and female over 18 have fired M-16 rifles and about half of the male population of this country is walking around carrying 3 years of combat service in crap places such as Gaza, with a noticeable number having been shot at a very large ammount of times. We're not a peaceful people because we haven't had a peaceful experience. We're militartistic, we live on our sword and we're very, very tough on the outside. There are so many automatic rifles on the streets of this country that NRA activists would be reduced into babbling incoherent morons at the sight of a train on Sunday. Our basic mentality is not Swiss and German, our basic mentality is Middle Eastern. We don't have the army as a means of assistance for population in trouble and as a national duty meant to give back to the country and society - we have the army because we need to make things explode and certain people need to be kept out in order to ensure that we live long enough as a country to develop a Swiss and German mentality...

My personal opinion is that we should engage in active trade, but not in active union. There is nothing to be gained except headaches. We Israelis would not tread lightly on the interal politics of the EU and we'd cause more trouble than we're worth, and the EU doesn't really need a bunch of whiney, militaristic pseudo-macho types giving them guilt trips over what happened 60 years ago. Most Israelis want the European trade-option as a means of exporting technology and importing goods. Most Euroepans want the Israelis to remain a harmless little sliver of land out of the way of the world. This is the optimal status quo - close friends, but not fuc|<buddies.
 
We're not giving you any direct trouble - the last bout of Arab-Israeli violence in Europe was in 1972 with the Munich olympics. With all regards to the EU, we're harmless. Please let us gut each other in peace.
 
Sh3kel said:
We're not giving you any direct trouble - the last bout of Arab-Israeli violence in Europe was in 1972 with the Munich olympics. With all regards to the EU, we're harmless. Please let us gut each other in peace.
Only last year, some French Muslims set fire to a synagogue and claimed it was revenge for Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians.
 
The Last Conformist said:
Only last year, some French Muslims set fire to a synagogue and claimed it was revenge for Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians.
I was under the impression the French government claimed there was no Antisemitic sentiment in the french public and that is was all lies propagated by the Israeli government out of paranoia, but if you say so....
 
Sh3kel said:
I was under the impression the French government claimed there was no Antisemitic sentiment in the french public and that is was all lies propagated by the Israeli government out of paranoia, but if you say so....
There's a reason Chirac is nicknamed "Superliar".

Antisemitism is fairly common among Europe's Muslim minorities. This doesn't seem to be getting better (some studies have found that 2nd generation immigrants are more likely to be antisemites than either their parents or fresh arrivals from the ME).
 
It would have to be renamed the Eurasian Union if Asian countries join Europe.
 
Damnyankee said:
You accus the US of being imperalistic, and Europe is already planing on gobbling up the mid-east :p

Why conquer them at the point of a sword when you can get them to join voluntarily at the stroke of a pen ;)
 
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