Canada

[Chopperhead]

- the law is the fabulous 101 law, (listen to a hockey game, they sign in french only if the Canadian de Montréal are playing. Talk about unfair... I mean, hockey in Québec is almost a religion. The list could go on and on and on.
- the canada did 3 consecutive (month after month) referendum in newfoundland to get it to be the 10th province in 49.
- the way democracy work is by getting 50 + 1 for winning. The separatists did loose 2 times so far. You'll have to learn to accept democratic laws.
- can confirm that in the next referendum we will have it clear that we will have our own "peace keeping" army. Keeping the current Canadian equipement and bases here in Quebec. It goes with sharing the dept.
- name me the law who was modified to suit the Quebec and then I will believe you. All this is just wild rumours as laws are voted by 75% people who don't come from Quebec. How can they vote a law modified for Quebec, it's unrealistic. The laws need to suits the most canadians possible...

I don't know however why you don't want to lose Quebec so much if you think so badly of them... I think it would be constructive to review the way we cooperate as it is no more productive (as you put it so well). And yes, the Sask. should be heard. I don't want them to be as badly taxed then we are here in Quebec. It would be destructive for them.

Well Im guessing you are from Quebec so you may not see things the way I do but yes Quebec gets special treatment. I may have worded it wrong but they make laws that specificly apply to Quebec as in Quebec is aloud to do this or they don't have to follow this. Like why do you think when you hear things like offer not available in Quebec or something like that because you have diferrent laws then the rest of Canada simple as that. and to answer your statement they make and change laws for Quebec because if they dont it just fuels the sepertists and they dont want to loose Quebec thats why.
I don't want to loose Quebec because well it's pretty simple I don't want my country spliting up. I have nothing against french people. I'm from Northern Ontario which is predominatly French just moved out to BC this summer. So like I understand the argument about Quebec having diffrent needs and I can respect that but when you go as far as to Elect a party whos sole purpose is the seperation of quebec from Canada kinda speaks volumes. Also I just have a hard time trying to understand why you want to seperate in the first place Quebec is one of the econmic powerhouse provinces of Canada along with Ontario so it's not like your being forgotten or not taken into consideration with every pice of legislation. there are plenty of other provinces worse off then Quebec I also dont agree with politicians babying Ont either constantly bailing out companys etc but what can you do.
Also if any of you want to have a real conversation about this you can PM me and we can discuss this in more detail cause I would really like hear other sides on this whole thing.

 

[Tharak]

I see an unneeded pride in the last posts. Let's keep it friendly. Quebec will cooperate with the maritimes provinces and east canada will cooperate with Quebec.

Do you think of the disaster it would be if anybody close it's border?

supply Quebec with the power/money/transport/infrastructure/etc?

we already have those. Currently supplying north USA and NB with hydro power (altough we are running out of)

That's part of my point - Quebec actually (IIRC) gets a significant amount of that power from Churchill Falls - part of Newfoundland - and believe me they'd LOVE to get out of that deal (again, another of those stupid perpetuity deals signed by Smallwood...bleh!).

I'm not trying to be unfriendly, but mearly voicing an opinoin - I actually am glad to hear some of these arguments, as i've never have people really explain the logic behind some of the drive for seperatism.

 

[Tharak]

Newfoundland no longer count their oil revenu in the sharing since about 1 year ago. Do I have to tell you that the Atlantic provinces are the poorest? And that Ontario and Alberta are keeping them alive?

Turnabout is fair play, since the maritimes supported the rest of Canada for the first hundred years of its existance. Remember that a lot of the maritimes were against Confederation because they'd have the economic burden to keep the rest of the country afloat! My how times change

 

[Tharak]

So true, ottawa dosent care about BC.

Every province feels like this - including (god only knows how or why!) Ontario

 

[grzelakc]

Atlantic Canada is poorest because Ontario designed it this way. Money from atalntic economies is always funnelled into Quebec or Ontario. Recall the case of Newfoundland's electricity exports...

Anyway, it has been an active policy for at least a century to move the centerpoint of Canada's economic activity to Ontario. That project succeeded beyond the authors' wildest dreams and at a great expense and injustice to Atlantic provinces.

Saint John, NB was the largest city in Canada in its heyday and as those things go, it probably would have remained that way had it not been for the active and concerted effort to rewrite the map of Canada by moving it's economic centre westwards, to Ontario.

 

[franlato]

This is simply not true. I've lived in 3 provinces in the last 3 years, all English speaking, and every one of them were against the war in Iraq. I think you should take some of this information with a grain of salt. As for conscription - the vast majority of Canadians were against it - not just quebec.

1. I'm just putting foward statistics.

Our foreign policy isn't divided on the issue of Quebec, any more than it is along the differences between Alberta and Newfoundland. I'd point out the millions of different reasons why Quebec isn't the only province who feels abandoned by Ottawa (go talk to a Newfoundlander with no job now that Ottawa has sold all the fish to Europe - or someone from BC or Alberta who don't feel they are getting a voice in parliament). Again - you are falling victem to propaganda - because it sounds good - a lot of what you've said simply isn't true.

2. it isn't divided on the issue of Québec. It's divided. I know that Québec isn't the only one who feel abandonned (did I said that?)

Quebec currently has unparalleled ability to do what it wants with its money. The only group in the country with more direct control over its own cash flow are the various native bands.

3. Then how come that in the last budget they did put their money on concervative things that Québec doesn't want? That is not controling our money (and when I mean money, I mean the money paid to Ottawa)

Quebec has had the opportunity to change the government themselves the last several elections - however, the vast majority in Quebec voted for the Bloc (a federal party that doesn't exist outside Quebec, and therefore can never be a majority in government) and the liberals (a surprisingly large number). Had Quebec voted for some of the national parties, the government would not be what it has been the last 12 years. It all comes down to numbers - Ontario and Quebec are the biggest, but since Quebec casts its votes in an insular fashion, whoever Ontario votes for essentially wins.

4. The Québec will not vote for concervatives... that's why the Bloc is there. They are "paceholders"
What can I tell you? If they did, this conversation would be closed right there. But since the liberals are the only party that Quebec have chance to vote for, they are the "defacto" gouvernement. (Brian Mulronney was charismatic enough to get votes from Québec). But since we want no more concervative gouvernements and that NPD isn't organised enough here, the only federalist choice is the liberals. Since that this party is so badly corrupted, even some federalists here vote for the Bloc.


Hope I gave some - just trying to point out some fallacies (as people have pointed out mine in the aforementioned discussion.. )

5. They are not fallacies, just point of views as the statitics i'm talking about does exist.

 

[Tharak]

Atlantic Canada is poorest because Ontario designed it this way. Money from atalntic economies is always funnelled into Quebec or Ontario. Recall the case of Newfoundland's electricity exports...



Saint John, NB was the largest city in Canada in its heyday and as those things go, it probably would have remained that way had it not been for the active and concerted effort to rewrite the map of Canada by moving it's economic centre westwards, to Ontario.

The biggest blow to the maritimes was the demise of the fisheries. Ottawa was shortsighted, and sold fishing rights to large European companies, who came over in massive fishing vessels and took all the fish. This left even the onshore fisheries devestated. This had a domino effect on the lumber industry..why? Because a significant portion of the work force came from fisherman who signed on in the "off season" - but when the fishing dried up, they left - so there were less labourers for logging. A fisherman used to count on a near 6 figure salary, and ended up with nothing...and people wonder why the east coast is pissed...

 

[Chopperhead]

Its because he's out here on the west coast - and like most Canadians west of Quebec, they have no idea (nor do most care) what goes on out east. The maritimes would be totally screwed if Quebec separated - unable to easily get anywhere, but with nothing to offer Quebec or the US from a production standpoint.

I'll plead a bit of ignorance here, but isn't a significant part of the tax issue in Quebec of its own making? I mean its the second biggest producing province in Canada, and is either second or third in per capita federal funding - yet its provincial taxes are among the highest in the country ...if it were a federal issue, wouldn't that not be the case? Maybe I'm misremembering my stats though..?

LoL I find this kind of funny because Im from Ont just moved out here to BC this summer and I hear the exact same thing out here just reverse it. you get a whole diferrent perspective on things though when you move half way across the country.

 

[franlato]

Turnabout is fair play, since the maritimes supported the rest of Canada for the first hundred years of its existance. Remember that a lot of the maritimes were against Confederation because they'd have the economic burden to keep the rest of the country afloat! My how times change

agree with you on this.

As for Churchill fall, it's an very small amount compared to the Québec consomation... enough maybe to close one of our small Thermal central... lol

 

[Kudos]

Name me 2 other counties who are surrounded on 3 sides by a single country. I'm always surprised that seperatists (and others) simply assume that Canada will happily supply Quebec with the power/money/transport/infrastructure/etc it needs after so badly damaging the country. Do they think that Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, New Brunswick and PEI are going to simply allow Quebec free reign and passage? Doubtful - all 4 provinces would be absolutely screwed, and unlikely to offer Quebec anything without a steep price.

They would help because they would have little choice in the matter. Political rhetoric may say otherwise, but in the end trade is more important and the people who decide the policy are not filled with nationalist grudges.

Two other countires that are surrounded on all 3 sides by one country are Lesotho and San Marino. But Quebec is surrounded on only 2 sides. The north is an ocean and the south is the United States, and there are plenty of countries that fall into that sort of geography.

 

[Tharak]

1. I'm just putting foward statistics..

What statistics? All canadians (a majority) were against the war in Iraq, but you've stated that only Quebec was- isn't that wrong then?


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2. it isn't divided on the issue of Québec. It's divided. I know that Québec isn't the only one who feel abandonned (did I said that?).

Quebec seperating won't fix that though- the other provinces, as we've discussed are still at odds on what is best for the country. You stated that by seperating it would be good for Canada's foreign policy, but since the rest of the country can't agree on anything, it's simply not (unless I'm mistaken here??)

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3. Then how come that in the last budget they did put their money on concervative things that Québec doesn't want? That is not controling our money (and when I mean money, I mean the money paid to Ottawa).

Err...money paid to Ottawa isn't your money - any more than BCs money paid to Ottawa isn't BCs money - see below for the reason, but if you don't vote in the government you want, you get the government Ontario votes in - and they do what they like with Federal money. HOWEVER - its a bit odd that the Bloc this time aren't doing more, as they could sway the NDP to vote with them and get their way - but they won't ....why? WHo knows? I was talking about Provincial money - quebec has more say in what they do with provincial money than anyone else..

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4. The Québec will not vote for concervatives... that's why the Bloc is there. They are "paceholders"
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hehe - unfortunately though, it means Ontario votes in the government every time - and then everyone (including the only people who could change it - Quebec) complains. Its a bit difficult to feel bad for a group who simply refuse to do something based on old opinons. If you think the liberals are doing a bad job, then vote for the PCs or the NDP - heck even the green party has national representation. But then all the kickbacks to Quebec companies would stop, and they don't want that - so the Bloc was a great alternative.

 

[franlato]

I like to talk about Canadian politics (all the deferents views is what make this contry interesting, or maybe i'm loving politic to much) but, no, we souldn't put Canada in cIV

 

[Tharak]

agree with you on this.

As for Churchill fall, it's an very small amount compared to the Québec consomation... enough maybe to close one of our small Thermal central... lol

ummm..Churchill falls has the largest hydroelectric-generating capacity in NORTH AMERICA. It currently puts out over 5200 MW of power - or about 1% of the WORLD'S hydroelectric power - it really is very big and supplies a significant portion of the power to Quebec

 

[Chopperhead]

I like to talk about Canadian politics (all the deferents views is what make this contry interesting, or maybe i'm loving politic to much) but, no, we souldn't put Canada in cIV

LoL i totaly agree very interesting. Im also very into politics so I do find this interesting to actually hear what people think not what the news or politicans think.

 

[Kudos]

grzelakc what province are you from? You just sound like you're echoing things your sour teacher told you.

All these arguments like Ontario car subsidies or St. John's once been the biggest city, are absurd. How about the MASSIVE fishing subsidies given to the atlantic provinces? Those are far worse for domestic and foreign economies. And "Once upon a time" isn't an argument. Once upon a time Rome ruled the world.

The atlantic provinces and the prairies are useless by comparison. That's why more attention is put into Quebec and Ontario. These are the places that keep the country's bank full and attract foreign investment. Take away Quebec, Ontario, B.C and Alberta and you're left with something on the cusp of "developing" status.

 

[Tharak]

They would help because they would have little choice in the matter. Political rhetoric may say otherwise, but in the end trade is more important and the people who decide the policy are not filled with nationalist grudges.

Two other countires that are surrounded on all 3 sides by one country are Lesotho and San Marino. But Quebec is surrounded on only 2 sides. The north is an ocean and the south is the United States, and there are plenty of countries that fall into that sort of geography.

True about the maritimes -just that most people out there can't see the area surviving when cut off from the rest of the country.

It gets a bit nit picky, but I don't think Quebec extends to Baffin Island/ther rest of them in the north, so technically Canada would still surround Quebec - Canada certainly wouldn't give up the rights to the northwest passage, especially as the ice is receeding, and it may become a very viable trade route (would actually be faster to go through that then the Panama Canal...)

 

[franlato]

All canadians (a majority) were against the war in Iraq...

if i'm listening to some pool in the Gazette (I think) it's sadly isn't true...
Forunately enough the pools did not decided, Chretien did

 

[Tharak]

grzelakc what province are you from? You just sound like you're echoing things your sour teacher told you.

All these arguments like Ontario car subsidies or St. John's once been the biggest city, are absurd. How about the MASSIVE fishing subsidies given to the atlantic provinces? Those are far worse for domestic and foreign economies. And "Once upon a time" isn't an argument. Once upon a time Rome ruled the world.

The atlantic provinces and the prairies are useless by comparison. That's why more attention is put into Quebec and Ontario. These are the places that keep the country's bank full and attract foreign investment. Take away Quebec, Ontario, B.C and Alberta and you're left with something on the cusp of "developing" status.

The subsidies weren't as big as you think, and it was actually VERY stupid - they were giving a little with one hand (subsidies) and taking away with the other (selling the fisheries to Europe). It was a stupid decision all around - it made a lot of money and sense in the short term, but was disasterous for the region in the long term.

And I don't think "cusp" would be the situation - the maritimes would certainly fall into developing nation status, and likely Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Until very recently BC would have been in the same boat, and the tarriffs on softwood lumber exports to the US aren't helping anything..

 

[Tharak]

All canadians (a majority) were against the war in Iraq...

if i'm listening to some pool in the Gazette (I think) it's sadly isn't true...
Forunately enough the pools did not decided, Chretien did

Absolutely - and a good decision it was

 

[franlato]

hurchill falls has the largest hydroelectric-generating capacity in NORTH AMERICA.

Maybe, but Quebec now recieve a minority of that power. We have very big centrals here. Manic 5 and LG 2 are the main ones. With the decision to massively buy eolian power (20% of our production) we will be on the track again, helping our much needing ontario friend. (the disaster of the privatisation, indeed)