Canada

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Stevo_D, Oct 20, 2005.

  1. Chopperhead

    Chopperhead Prince

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    I agree with the not going to Iraq I think it showed that we as Canada still have a backbone and don't have to follow the US. Polls dont really prove anything though. I do belive that most Canadians were agaisnt the war whether the polls say diffrently or not. I also am joining the military next summer and I am a conservative and I know from talking to many many people even amougnst the military were quite happy that we did not go to Iraq.
     
  2. Tharak

    Tharak Chieftain

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    *LOL*

    I was a bit surprised that Quebec was now getting less power from CF?? Why is that - the deal signed (and much lamanted in NFLD) was supposed to be forever...did you guys decide to give some back? I hadn't heard anything had changed..
     
  3. franlato

    franlato Warlord

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    This contry would need some good leader to put this on the right track. This Paul Martin "assimetric" thing is going to do a second URSS.... to much province going their own way.

    Quebec did helped NF build it. But the major deal ended a while ago. Leaving something in the order of 10% of the churchill production to Québec after that. But again, i'm not sure.
     
  4. Tharak

    Tharak Chieftain

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    Heh - I know a lot of people in the military, and they were ALL happy not to go to Iraq. Bad enough getting blown up in Afganistan and Bosnia - they did't want the chance to get killed in yet another foreign country..
     
  5. ehBeaver

    ehBeaver Chieftain

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    Where in BC do you live? Don't need to tell me, just wondering.
     
  6. Tharak

    Tharak Chieftain

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    This is absolutley true. True that he is handcuffed by the minority government, but I don't think he's a particularly good leader. We need someone a bit stronger and more decisive.
     
  7. Chopperhead

    Chopperhead Prince

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    we need a PM who can unify the country. each province thinks it's getting the raw end of the stick and each province has diffrent needs so thats why this feeling happens. there is more regional loyalty in Canada then National Loyalty and pride. Even in the provinces themselves there are regional loyalties usually north and south.
     
  8. Tharak

    Tharak Chieftain

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    This is true in the bigger ones (Ontario, Alberta and BC come to mind). The smaller ones actually group together (maritimes) Then poor NFLD and Labradour stuck out there by themselves
     
  9. R-A-N-M-A

    R-A-N-M-A Chieftain

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    In actual fact if Quebec were to leave Canada it wouldn't be some clear cut oh look now there are 3 countries north of mexico. For starters if Quebec were to separate approximatly 3/4 of the province would go right back to Canada. Why? Because it isn't French, its Native. Quebec would have no money for them as much as they would love to have Canada's helping hand in sovereignty they would get the cold shoulder, and the United States is terrified by teh whole language thing. Quebec would probably end up violently left wing borderline communism in order to pay for everything. If Quebec left there would be a ripple effect through the rest of Canada and you can sure as hell bet Alberta would be as good as gone too. The rest of Canada would probably be next to a third world country, with only one pronvince left still making money, and barely at that.

    Keeping Quebec is simple, keep paying them, but in doing so you alienate the province with the real money. I hear rumblings from out east about mayors and government officials calling for the Renstatement of the NEP, if anyhing like that were to ever happen again you can say hello to the independant nation of Alberta we know how much it hurt the first time around and it won't be allowed to happen again.

    Quebec thinks it contributes far more than it takes, the truth is there is no economy in Quebec. Without Canada quebec is finished, with Quebec Canada is finished (in a fiscal sense). It is a loose loose situation in Canada right now, and the corrupt liberal bastards are only dumping gas on the fire.

    There is probably only 1 solution and it would be a gruling long term process, if the transfer money wasn't used to prop up failing businesses and instead was used to develope more viable ones. The money would be treated more like an investement than a cash grab. For example oil money from Alberta goes into developing a Hydrodam in manitoba which could then pay back some to alberta some to other projects in BC or Saskachewan and most to the province there is the same about going out of Alberta but some coming back in as opposed to none and as a result Manitoba secures a stable reliable long lasting income source for itself so that less must be taken from out of province. At least that way you wouldn't have to worry about Alberta becomeing as separate from Canada as Quebec is. I am sure if you look hard enough you can find a far more elloquent and more well defined version of this thinking from the Canada West Foundation. I am just doing as well as I can parroting an article of thiers in the globe and mail.

    The arguement that Quebec has to get off its high horse is absolutly correct if they want to be a part of this country they can't be so isolationist, if they were more open sure more english would get in but more french would get out and a more homogenious state of affaires would come about. The real road black to any reform is the Liberal Party of Canada, it is a corrupt power hungry machine whose only goal is to rule Canada and if the only way to do it is rob from the rich and give it to only the superficial needs of the poor without attacking the underlying problems they'll do it. It is time for them to take the back bench and let a more compotent party take the reigns. Don't even think about the NDP they would be worse than the Liberals ever where, wanna know where are debt comes from, the Liberal-NDP collition under Trudeau.

    I know this little talk on Canadian politics has been violently off topic so I'll get back to the Civilization related issue.

    Should Canada be in? I don't really think it matters. Does Canada deserve to be in? As much as any other. Any one who says Canada is unworthy has to really reevaluate what it means to deserve it and what exactly Canada has going for it.

    The real reason Canada will never play a prominant part in Civilization is simple because of where Canada is geographically. If Canada's wealth, size, natural resourses, population, history and policies were anywhere else in the world other than being over shadowed by it's neighbour to the south it would be one of the most powerful countries in the world, and not the oft ignored counter part of the US. Canada and the US are Similar, defenetly not the same but similar, and so long as the US is as big powerful and boistrus as it is and Canada remains as meek and overly compromising as it is in comparison to the US. Canada will remain ignored and over shadowed essentially no matter what happens. The only reason Canada remains meeks is Canadians who don't think Canada deserves it, some times a little National Pride is called for.
     
  10. Chopperhead

    Chopperhead Prince

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    Speaking off seperations and such in Ontario there is talk about splitting the Province in half north and south. Personally Im for this being from Northern Ontario. When laws are passed they usualy are based on what the south needs because there is more people there. but whats good for the south is not usually good for the north as they have so many differences. I have lived in southern Ontario as well so I can see both ends of what goes on.
     
  11. franlato

    franlato Warlord

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    In fact Ottawa keep the money to buy votes by releasing a buget some times before the election. That's why everybody doesn't get is share. It's poorly spended "à la va vite" like we say over here.
     
  12. Chopperhead

    Chopperhead Prince

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    YES YES YES Finally someone who sees things like I do I totaly agree with everything you said.
     
  13. Tharak

    Tharak Chieftain

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    Ahhh..the Abertans chime in :) I've known a few from Alberta, and the rehtoric there is always the same - Liberals bad, PC/Alliance good. Despite the fact they've come out and alienated the rest of the country with terms like "Lazy newfoundlanders", and how all cape bretoners are on welfare *lol*

    And wasn't Mulroney a PC? Wasn't there just a book written about how corrupt his government was?

    Lets all face facts - every one of our parties are corrupt, and they all are looking out for themselves- its just a matter of trying to guess which one won't screw the country whytrying to get their way..

    That's all for tonight, but I'm very intersted in this so far - will check back in tomorrow..

    Thanks everyone for their opinons - I know it got WAAAY off topic, but I found this very enlightening and informative!
     
  14. Kudos

    Kudos Warlord

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    Ranma your theories are outrageous. You continue the trend of demonizing the seperation and overplaying Quebec arrogance and power hunger. Maybe you are forgetting that they ARE the 2nd biggest province in population and wealth and that calls for a respectable amount of attention in federal politics. The whole idea of dividing the province because of "natives" is ludicrious. What is Quebecs now is Quebecs forever unless those natives somehow managed to stage a sucession.

    Countries DO break up. These things happen and often turn out for the better despite the boogeyman stories. Look at Ireland; it was assumed that once it seperated from the UK it would be dead for good, but today it's the fastest growing, most prosperous country in Europe.

    [edit] And you play yet another stereotype by assuming Americans "would be intimidated by a foreign language". Well I guess that means all of Japan, China, France, Germany etc. speak english?.

    It also should be noted that out of all of Canada, Quebec is really the only place that has a truly established, orignal and respectable culture.
     
  15. Chopperhead

    Chopperhead Prince

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    do you honestly think that everyone in Quebec now will stay if Quebec seprates? Unlikely. At least 1/3 of the population will more then likely leave because they dont want to live in Quebec they want to live in Canada just look at how close the votes have been Im pretty sure a good chunk of those who vote NON will pick up and leave.
     
  16. franlato

    franlato Warlord

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    RANMA, I understand your vision but I have to say that it's this kind of thinking that make the Québec want to separate. People here are bored with politics, feeling sick about it.
    If you think that Québec is on his high horse, you have to keep in mind that it's an federalist party that make you believe that. They actually push for an assimetric contry to get some of the souveranists votes. Doing so, you can't help but feel we are on "high horses". He always ask for money. But then, this province in becoming more and more dificult to gouvern. Not because it's poor. As a matter of fact, i'm getting jobs verrrry easily. It's even lacking persons to work here in Québec. It's the fact that we have so many old persons that drags us behind. Since everybody here pay double taxes, double all, and that people are against privatisations, they have no choice to ask Ottawa for money. *they have tons of surplus after all*

    edit : all those aggressive arguments about Quebec isn't helping Canada. You have to understand the situation here and why people are complaining before saying we are "on high horse".

    edit : I don't think so many people would leave. Just think of the New Orleans, everybody want to go back there. People are just too in love with their little corner of Québec. I think it would be hard negociations :)
     
  17. Kudos

    Kudos Warlord

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    A good portion would you're right. I have "non" voting relatives that would definetly pack up and leave...at least that's what they say. In such a dramatic turn of events you can only expect people to say dramatic things. Once the dust settles and they realize their tounges are still in place, their house is still standing and their bank account is stable, they may change their mind.

    Regardless, emigration would be a problem but only a temporary one. Eventually the dust would settle and the country would begin attracting fresh immigrants.
     
  18. R-A-N-M-A

    R-A-N-M-A Chieftain

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    Last time I check the conservatives of today are not teh conservatives of Brain Mulroney, the party has been through drastic upheval, my only hope is that once, Mumbles Martin is defeated, he and Chretien will be used as examples of Liberal corruption at its worst, just as Mulroney has been for the Tories. The Conservatives have done thier time as political exiles and they have reinvented themselves. If the liberals wanna really prove to this country they are the right ones to be leading they have to clean up thier act, and as far as I can see they have done nothing to the effect. I think it is blindingly apparent to most Canadians that the sponcorship scandal goes far deeper than we know. The fall guys have been put up and no further inquiery will be made until the liberals are out. Let's not forget this isn't eventhe biggest case of liberal squandering, ever hear of the gun regestry, a project that was supposed to cost around 2 million dollars and is pushing 1 billion dollars. Canadians are too quick to forgive and forget when it comes to the liberals and it actually pains me to see it.
     
  19. Chopperhead

    Chopperhead Prince

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    WoW it's nice to hear somone with almost identical politcal views as me. as Im living in BC now it's all Liberal and NDP out here I hate it but nothing I can do about it
     
  20. franlato

    franlato Warlord

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    yes but again, they must earn the rest of the canada because here people just don't agree with their ideas. They don't want to see republicans relatives rule the contry... unless they change their leader so that he is a french canadian (very cheesy tactic, I agree), they have no chances. It's the hard facts... Did you see those Quebec concervatives?? Man they just are not up to it...

    edit : keep in mind we are voting for Quebec concervatives deputies. If we had the cream of the party right here like Brian Mulronney once did manage to get. Then maybe people would vote for them. But then again, Brian's concervative party as been an historic exeption. They really must have a clear win in Ontario to have a chance.

    Oh, and the actual Quebec prime minister who you say is "on his high horse" is an ex Brian ministry. The infamous "Jean Charest" who lead, with Kim Cambell, the CP to disaster. Well, he's leading us to disaster now... so another reason why people will not vote for CP.

    edit : It's a near revolt unpopularity for Jean Charest :) lol. 75 % who think he should actually quit now. Another thing that are helping the souveranists.
     

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