Canada

[R-A-N-M-A]

Ranma your theories are outrageous. You continue the trend of demonizing the seperation and overplaying Quebec arrogance and power hunger. Maybe you are forgetting that they ARE the 2nd biggest province in population and wealth and that calls for a respectable amount of attention in federal politics. The whole idea of dividing the province because of "natives" is ludicrious. What is Quebecs now is Quebecs forever unless those natives somehow managed to stage a sucession.

Countries DO break up. These things happen and often turn out for the better despite the boogeyman stories. Look at Ireland; it was assumed that once it seperated from the UK it would be dead for good, but today it's the fastest growing, most prosperous country in Europe.

[edit] And you play yet another stereotype by assuming Americans "would be intimidated by a foreign language". Well I guess that means all of Japan, China, France, Germany etc. speak english?.

It also should be noted that out of all of Canada, Quebec is really the only place that has a truly established, orignal and respectable culture.

Do you know who Gwen Dyer is? This outragous theory about 3/4 of quebec returning to Canada is his not mine. Probably around 4 to 4.5 million of quebecs population is francophone and nearly all of it is on the Saint-Laurence and surrounding area. Northern Quebec is as French as Winston Churchill, if quebec left they loose thier money from the federal government and they'd get it back by force not diplomatic means. If there is one group among Canadians willing to fight for anything it is the Natives and they have shown us this time and time again.

 

[R-A-N-M-A]

yes but again, they must earn the rest of the canada because here people just don't agree with their ideas. They don't want to see republicans relatives rule the contry... unless they change their leader so that he is a french canadian (very cheesy tactic, I agree), they have no chances. It's the hard facts... Did you see those Quebec concervatives?? Man they just are not up to it...

edit : keep in mind we are voting for Quebec concervatives deputies. If we had the cream of the party right here like Brian Mulronney once did manage to get. Then maybe people would vote for them. But then again, Brian's concervative party as been an historic exeption. They really must have a clear win in Ontario to have a chance

That is an unfortunate truth that greatly pains me. WHen people talk about Ontario they are only talking about Southern Ontario, they are the most arrogant and blind group of Canadians of us all, forget Quebec. Statistics may show that there is a certainly level of fiscal ignorance among Quebecois but I don't think they are as blind to the needs and situations of the rest of Canada as Southern Ontario.

I resent the fact that you call the Conservatives republican cousins, the real fact is the United states is playing a whole different ball game. People love the democrats but they fail to realise that the most left leaning democrat is farther right leaning than the average conservative.

Please excuse the double post.

Jean Charet lost my respect when he became a turn coat. WHy the people of QUebec would even concider him when when he priviously lead the party they did not support is beyond me. Another point is that not all PQ voters are separatists, they are certainly anti-liberal and the Pq is the only Viable opposition within the province. I would really like to see how the ADQ does in the next election with a liberal party so weak it is unable to make it seem like they would be the demons splitting votes and putting the PQ back into power.

I think that is about all the political discussion I can handle for tonight. It was fun.

 

[Chopperhead]

yes but again, they must earn the rest of the canada because here people just don't agree with their ideas. They don't want to see republicans relatives rule the contry... unless they change their leader so that he is a french canadian (very cheesy tactic, I agree), they have no chances. It's the hard facts... Did you see those Quebec concervatives?? Man they just are not up to it...

edit : keep in mind we are voting for Quebec concervatives deputies. If we had the cream of the party right here like Brian Mulronney once did manage to get. Then maybe people would vote for them. But then again, Brian's concervative party as been an historic exeption. They really must have a clear win in Ontario to have a chance.

Oh, and the actual Quebec prime minister who you say is "on his high horse" is an ex Brian ministry. The infamous "Jean Charest" who lead, with Kim Cambell, the CP to disaster. Well, he's leading us to disaster now... so another reason why people will not vote for CP.

I do believe that next election the PC will be in government I dont know about a majority although it would be nice. People are just fed up with the liberals plane and simple. the PC's will end up getting votes not necesarily for them but more so against the liberals. Also Alberta is PC and I belive Manitoba is as well

 

[Kudos]

Do you know who Gwen Dyer is? This outragous theory about 3/4 of quebec returning to Canada is his not mine. Probably around 4 to 4.5 million of quebecs population is francophone and nearly all of it is on the Saint-Laurence and surrounding area. Northern Quebec is as French as Winston Churchill, if quebec left they loose thier money from the federal government and they'd get it back by force not diplomatic means. If there is one group among Canadians willing to fight for anything it is the Natives and they have shown us this time and time again.

I do know who he is, I've read alot of his things (though none related to Canadian poltics since it's usually a pretty dry subject). If he said that I would still argue it outrageous that 3/4 of the population would leave. MAYBE 1/4 but much more then that is implausible.

 

[franlato]

don't believe the liberals will be defeated. I really don't think so. The CP is far behind right now as everybody forgot the Gomery thing already. (everywhere but here, as it's an Quebec scandal mosty who cheated the Quebecois and made them believe Ottawa was toying with their loyalty). Even Radio-Canada now let's souveranists talk. They received almost every great souveranists leaders still alive on their big Sunday show: "tout le monde en parle".

Quebecois cheated by Québecois... I must laugh and cry at the same time, sorry, pathetic

 

[R-A-N-M-A]

I do know who he is, I've read alot of his things (though none related to Canadian poltics since it's usually a pretty dry subject). If he said that I would still argue it outrageous that 3/4 of the population would leave. MAYBE 1/4 but much more then that is implausible.

Oh no sorry you've misunderstood, I am not talking population I am talking land. 3/4 of Quebec's current land really wouldn't be Quebec any more if they left.

 

[Kudos]

Oh no sorry you've misunderstood, I am not talking population I am talking land. 3/4 of Quebec's current land really wouldn't be Quebec any more if they left.

Oh Ok well that atleast makes more sense then 3/4 the population .

The natives may fight for ever over it, but Quebec wouldn't roll over for them. There's alot of natural resources availible up there that won't be handed over to another state without alot of diplomacy (i'll refrain from using "fight")

 

[franlato]

being Canadian is : Talking politic and democracy till 3 hours in the morning and still not being able to go to sleep. It's being open minded, as i'm an actual PQ member and will vote for a leader next week, open minded enough to talk with fellow canadians on how to improve our contry
and not stupidly saying that hurricanes will destroy Canada after an democratic vote.

I know I can't convince anyone, but still I hope that everyone will be fairplay in the end and that noboby will reny their values on pride. I can assure you altough that whatever the resulsts on the long run. We will always be there to help the best we can (bringing our high horses, stuborn peacefullness, fears and culture along).

Good night

 

[Chopperhead]

just out of curiosity to anyone here who supports the Bloc I checked their website although there was no english (thats fairness) I could read alittle bit about it why on earth do they talk about Lévesque as a great patriot of Quebec and this and that when from what I can recal he practically killed the Quebec economy, he kept Quebec stagnent while the rest of Canada was evolving with technology and such he forced Quebec to remain behind and it wasnt till he died that Quebec started to recover.

 

[franlato]

just out of curiosity to anyone here who supports the Bloc I checked their website although there was no english (thats fairness) I could read alittle bit about it why on earth do they talk about Lévesque as a great patriot of Quebec and this and that when from what I can recal he practically killed the Quebec economy, he kept Quebec stagnent while the rest of Canada was evolving with technology and such he forced Quebec to remain with historical values and it wasnt till he died that Quebec started to recover.

he did lots of thing and didn't leave economy in ruins. He virtually made Hydro-Quebec. He was the one behind that 101 law. Before he was in the PQ he was in the liberals with Jean Lessage I think (not sure). And they did put the Quebec out of their religion foolishness (adopting the free religion civic in Quebec, lol). He was a great journalist. But most importantly and frankly was an hard working man that cared for is fellow citizens. He could have lead a lot of Québecois to a revolt but simply and respectfully said "à la prochaine fois". Now, tell me of a great leader in the world who was this respectfull when loosing. (as a matter of fact, in the second referendum, the guy said we loosed because of money. Now knowing about the sponsorship scandal, he was very true altough not as respectfull of canada democracy)
He was cheated (again a cheat) by Jean Chretien who bringed back the constitution in 1980 without the signature of the Quebec. (needless to say that by doing that he made the souveranist option jump from 30 to 50 and now with gomery he made it jump to 55% and a lot of my friends are now concidering that option) It is what we call here "La nuit des longs couteau". As democratics rules where again passed over to litteraly avoid arguments. (Many people are afraids of having arguments with peoples)

The PQ site is actually is spanish, protuguese, enlgish and french.

 

[Chopperhead]

Well i guess it's a matter of perspective then but unless I have people mixed up here then I was tought in history classes somewhat the opposite of what you said I was tought that kept Quebec governed in the old ways of the church etc and killed the economy so unless I have the people mixed up which I dont think so then history in Ontario and Hostory in Quebec seem to somehow have diffrent historys.

I never saw where you could change it to english so i apoligise for that.

One more question for you though since you are PQ are you a sepertaist?

Oh one more thing about the knife in the back to Quebec with whole constition thing I completly understand why that had the affect it did but you also have to understand why it happened Quebec would simply not cooperate with the rest of canada and after years of debating finally got all other provinces to agree and since Quebec would simply not budge at all so they whent ahead with it anyway
personally I dont think they should have but it was more an act of despertation then any lack of respect to Quebec as they were appeasing the vast majority of Canada and we really did need to bring our constitustion home and to be honest I think that today talks really should get back to this issuse and finally come to a comprimise and get Quebec to finaly sign the document. It really would speak monumental to the rest of Canada if Quebec made this gesture.

 

[cythochrome]

Well i guess it's a matter of perspective then but unless I have people mixed up here then I was tought in history classes somewhat the opposite of what you said I was tought that kept Quebec governed in the old ways of the church etc and killed the economy so unless I have the people mixed up which I dont think so then history in Ontario and Hostory in Quebec seem to somehow have diffrent historys.

I think you are talking about Duplessis(40s-50s). He was using church as an active political tool. One of his famous quote is
The sky(heaven) is blue (Color of his party); Hell is red (Liberal). The period of his rule is now called "the great darkness".

 

[R-A-N-M-A]

Oh Ok well that atleast makes more sense then 3/4 the population .

The natives may fight for ever over it, but Quebec wouldn't roll over for them. There's alot of natural resources availible up there that won't be handed over to another state without alot of diplomacy (i'll refrain from using "fight")

You are right Quebecois would not just roll over to the natives. I think also that in the event of separation the Natives will be far more organized and ready to go than most people think. Also in the event of separation you don't think that the Canadian government wouldn't back the natives. The sticky political topic of Quebec separation would quickly become civil war.

 

[Chopperhead]

I think you are talking about Duplessis(40s-50s). He was using church as an active political tool. One of his famous quote is
The sky(heaven) is blue (Color of his party); Hell is red (Liberal). The period of his rule is now called "the great darkness".

Ya sorry about the mix up there your right thats who I'm thinking of.

 

[Kudos]

You are right Quebecois would not just roll over to the natives. I think also that in the event of separation the Natives will be far more organized and ready to go than most people think. Also in the event of separation you don't think that the Canadian government wouldn't back the natives. The sticky political topic of Quebec separation would quickly become civil war.

If you mean civil war in the literal sense, I think that's out of the question. The natives also don't control 3/4 of the country and what they do control would end up been chipped away if a compromise was required.

Personally I dont think the natives deserve any land whatsoever, but thats another debate.

Oh and it's Quebecker not Quebecois.

 

[R-A-N-M-A]

If you mean civil war in the literal sense, I think that's out of the question. The natives also don't control 3/4 of the country and what they do control would end up been chipped away if a compromise was required.

Personally I dont think the natives deserve any land whatsoever, but thats another debate.

Oh and it's Quebecker not Quebecois.

I always say Quebecois because I was in french immersion k-12 and most of the Teachers were from Quebec.

The Natives area big case of wait and see, weither the Natives deserve any land or not is not the issue, weither they will fight to get it and win is. It is my feeling that tey will be ready and waiting is separation ever occures they will take what they see as thiers, they will be organized and ready and few people in a disorganized new government will be.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

That is an unfortunate truth that greatly pains me. WHen people talk about Ontario they are only talking about Southern Ontario, they are the most arrogant and blind group of Canadians of us all, forget Quebec.

We do pretty well in that category out here in Alberta, I assure you.

Jean Charet lost my respect when he became a turn coat. WHy the people of QUebec would even concider him when when he priviously lead the party they did not support is beyond me.

Mulroney's Conservatives led the biggest majority in Canadian history in 1988. Chretien followed him with huge Liberal majority government soon thereafter. Does that make Canadians turncoats? No, it means that Canadians - like most democratice voters - support change (any change) when they are dissatisifed. Charest represented that change for Quebeckers. Until the early 2000s, Liberal vs. Conservative was a trite issue for most Canadians.

I do believe that next election the PC will be in government I dont know about a majority although it would be nice. People are just fed up with the liberals plane and simple. the PC's will end up getting votes not necesarily for them but more so against the liberals. Also Alberta is PC and I belive Manitoba is as well

The next government will likely be a returning Liberal minority, with a small chance of a Conservative minority if southern Ontario votes blue. But here's the thing - day in and out we like to slam those people in the media and criticize them for supporting corruption. Now we ask them to support Conservatives (and let's admit it - a re-tool Western-interest Alliance party) in the next election?? Fat chance.

Like it or not, the Conservatives need a leader for Ontario or Quebec, or an "old boys" leader from the West if they are to gain ground in Ontario.

And if they do - so what? Who are the Conservatives going to lean on for support in a minority government? The Bloc? Not likely.

Boys and girls, we are not NEARLY out of this quagmire yet. We'll have a messy, indecisive, sniping government for another 4-6 years.

...open minded enough to talk with fellow canadians on how to improve our contry and not stupidly saying that hurricanes will destroy Canada after an democratic vote.

The problem is that party leaders aren't open-minded enough to do this. This is the perfect opportunity to real government and constitutional reform. So why is no one talking about it beyond lip-service? If you listen to each leader, each thinks that electing the other will destroy Canada.

Kinda hard for the population to be optimistic about the fate of the country when the leadership runs screaming 'fire' in all directions.

 

[R-A-N-M-A]

We do pretty well in that category out here in Alberta, I assure you.



Mulroney's Conservatives led the biggest majority in Canadian history in 1988. Chretien followed him with huge Liberal majority government soon thereafter. Does that make Canadians turncoats? No, it means that Canadians - like most democratice voters - support change (any change) when they are dissatisifed. Charest represented that change for Quebeckers. Until the early 2000s, Liberal vs. Conservative was a trite issue for most Canadians.



The next government will likely be a returning Liberal minority, with a small chance of a Conservative minority if southern Ontario votes blue. But here's the thing - day in and out we like to slam those people in the media and criticize them for supporting corruption. Now we ask them to support Conservatives (and let's admit it - a re-tool Western-interest Alliance party) in the next election?? Fat chance.

Like it or not, the Conservatives need a leader for Ontario or Quebec, or an "old boys" leader from the West if they are to gain ground in Ontario.

And if they do - so what? Who are the Conservatives going to lean on for support in a minority government? The Bloc? Not likely.

Boys and girls, we are not NEARLY out of this quagmire yet. We'll have a messy, indecisive, sniping government for another 4-6 years.



The problem is that party leaders aren't open-minded enough to do this. This is the perfect opportunity to real government and constitutional reform. So why is no one talking about it beyond lip-service? If you listen to each leader, each thinks that electing the other will destroy Canada.

Kinda hard for the population to be optimistic about the fate of the country when the leadership runs screaming 'fire' in all directions.

You are exactly right I know that this period of terrible governing will last a long time yet. It is hard to like the state of affairs in Canada right now, the prime minister we do have is a weakling and a terrible public speaker and there is no one better by a large margine in the opposition, Harper is a robot, and Layton is probably the most rat like and untrustworthy candidate. The best thing that can happen is if the conservatives loose the Election there will be a leadership convention and some one like Peter McKay wins.

I know that here too there are politically blind people, but not to the extent of Ontario, my dad is in and out of there all the time and he tells me so real horror stories about the level of ignorance out there, especially in the News papers.

Canadians are not Turn coats but when you go from a member of one party to seek a posistion of power in another like Charest did or like Stronach did you are a turn coat. To me this shows a massive lack of integrity. If you want to show protest show some integrity and sit as an independant like David Kilgor has done this time around.

 

[Makalo]

Why would there be a civil war if Quebec separates from Canada? It's Quebecker in english and Quebecois in french. They feel the need to secede because of the cultural differences, weak government (corruption, something about rich people paying no taxes, etc.) and nationalism I guess, It's a democratic decision.

Anyways, I agree with what Firaxis did, take only the most influencial civilizations who made a huge difference in history.

 

[belamorte]

The PCs/Reform/Alliance or whatever they are calling themselves these days will never ever form a majority gov't in this country until they find themselves a leader with the balls to get rid of the ultra-rightwingers like Randy White, Stockwell Day, Darell Stinson, Myron Thompson just to name a few. There are too many MPs, not to mention regualr members of the party, that are so out of touch with the rest of the country that with people like them the party is unelectable. Far to often these type of people stick their foot in their mouths and the Liberal machine is too smart and powerful to let them get away with it. --- We all remeber Randy White's comments prior to last election on same-sex marriage --- we remember Harpers comments about the maritimes --- we remeber Stock in his wet suit and then not knowing which way the niagra river flows along with his ideas about how the earth started --- remember the wanna-be Cons MP in Winnipeg who said the things about the west being run over by Asians and on and on it goes.

Perhaps some, many or all of these types of stories are blown out of porportion but that is what politics is like. It is unfortunate, but the party who can put out the best spin, to go along with a charasmatic leader wins. And, the Liberals with the likes of Warren Kinsella and those he taught putting out the spin are pretty much unbeatable until the Cons clean up thier own house and learn to play hardball, not just nerfball that they play now. Politics is dirty and the Cons must get off their high-horse of trying to change things from a position of weakness. If they want to change the way politics is done in Canada all the power too them but until they are in power they will never have the chance. Remember how well the "no-scrum" thing worked? It didnt.


Stephen Harper, while he seems bright, will never go over in the rest of Canada. Sure the Cons will win seats in the west, but that is not because the Cons have such good ideas or candidates but because westerns generally feel alienated as a whole. Peter McKay carries too much baggage but someone who would appeal to alot of people, is Bernard Lord, who is probably to smart to jump into federal mudslinging, i mean politics.

After the next election when Martin wins with another minority, there is bound to be a major shakeup in both the parties, and the Libs have some very strong candidates just waiting in the wings. (Brian Tobin, Allan Rock, Frank McKenna, John Manely again just to name a few who will appeal to all of Canada not just Ontario/Maritimes). So be pepared for another 12 years of Liberal government.

Anyhow carry on, my 2c from a westerner