Canada

[ehBeaver]

To me you didnt seem like that. I can understand how you feel/felt, I did insult Poland a bit. Sorry.

 

[King Flevance]

Toss-up between Celine Dion and Bryan Adams.

Now that I think of it... Alanis Morisette could fit the bill. She has "spunk" to her.

And she is well traveled, so would have rather good diplomacy standings

They must be jealous.

I dont know about the other AMERICANS. I am very anti-politically correct. Cause its BS. Central americans refer to themselves as Guatamalans, Mexicans, and such. South America refers to itself as Brazilians, Columbians, etc. And Canadians, well I just gave you that answer. Quit doing that North and South and Central crap. Its like that whole African American/Black thing. Yeah and I am Caucasian American and I dont even know WTH that means. Who thought up caucasian? How about pigmently challenged american or maybe I should start being offended if someone doesnt call me a German Polish Irish Native American?

Anywho, honestly Canada should be in the game why not?
Heck Bob's Village should be in here if Bob ever claimed a vilage in his name. I am going to mod in the blackfoot as soon as I figure out how this XML/Python stuff works exactly. They werent an empire but they controlled land and had a impact on the world as every culture has. Including canada. I dont know what it is for either but I believe in the butterfly effect so everyone is welcome in my book.
I know the 18 year olds in America love Canadians because of legal age limit restrictions here. Though I am sure they have had some kind of governing leader that is better of a choice ruler than an entertainer that made their way off american culture. Besides their flag is cool.

 

[Tharak]

The 1995 referndum was defeated by one percentage point. There hasn't been high enough immigration to have any effect on that vote. With the current seperatist zeal the outcome of a future referndum is impossible to predict.

Yes, but law has now been passed that a simple majority is no longer enough (the 50% +1 rule). I believe they need a 2/3 majority to separate, and last I checked separatism was losing ground - not gaining. There is very little to gain (from a Quebec perspective) by being a separate nation. Heck, the debt they'd inherit would cripple the economy before they got off the ground. That, and a lack of access to the "country" other than through controlled Canadian airspace/water..

 

[Kudos]

Yes, but law has now been passed that a simple majority is no longer enough (the 50% +1 rule). I believe they need a 2/3 majority to separate, and last I checked separatism was losing ground - not gaining. There is very little to gain (from a Quebec perspective) by being a separate nation. Heck, the debt they'd inherit would cripple the economy before they got off the ground. That, and a lack of access to the "country" other than through controlled Canadian airspace/water..

To both this and grzelakc it should be noted that the likelihood of Canada remaining unified upon an independent Quebec is highly unlikely. Quebec, Alberta and Ontario are Canada. The other provinces offer wonderful things but in the end it's these 3 powerhouses and B.C that keep the country running.

I have heard nothing of this new 2/3 majority law so I'd need to see some proof. The last time you checked on separatism must have been a while back. The current corruption scandal has soiled the federal and provincial liberals and refueled the soverignty movement. A PQ government in the next provincal election along with the continuing trend for independence is very much a possibility and a sucessful yes vote should not be ignored like some conspiracy theory (unless of course this 2/3 majority rule is true - which I doubt - in which case it can be safely said it will never happen).

There are plenty of reasons for Quebec's indepedence and plenty of reasons for staying in confederation. But these horror stories of a ravaged economy and global isolation are absurd. North Americans seem to forget that most continents are occupied by more then 3 countries in an easy vertical stack.
There are lots of landlocked countries, though Quebec wouldn't be one of them, and using another countries air space for economic purposes would not be some new precedent.

The irony is that the Liberal party corruption scandal, it rooting from a program designed to keep the country together, could ultimatly break it apart.

 

[grzelakc]

I don't live in Quebec so I don't understand its provincial politics so please excuse my ignorance... but what exactly does Quebec stand to gain by declaring its sovereignty?

Besides satisfying Gill Dueceppe's overinflated ego, that is.

 

[franlato]

Quebec wont seperate in the near future, too many English and immigrants who want to stay with Canada.

i've heard lot of them asking me why we're not already separated.
I have to tell some people here that Quebec IS crumbling under tons of taxes. It's victim of the federalism. The present gouvernement in Québec is federalist and Ottawa abandonned it, prefering to give money to the army (wich Quebecer don't care about, we said no to the two conscriptions for the world war, afterwise froced) then to his federalist friend who is on a DESATROUS(the worst in history here, maybe) mandate. The PQ (souverainists) made an underprecedented offensive, listening to the people had to say (calling that thing "the season of ideas") and now on a mission to :
1. reinvent our democracy (making it participative, not representative (there will be organized forums with veto votes in the national chamber)
2. making the independance with a well oiled plan based on the good intentions of all our english friends. (usa and Canada)

this independance is, by the way, to make possible for canada to have a coherent foreign policy.
(a pool said that english speaking canadians where for the war in Irak, as an exemple)
and to do what we want with our money (not that we will have more of it, we will just be able to control it the way we want without having to argue with other provinces. (even the federalist partys have to do that... it says why it such a problem)

Helped with so many corruption in Ottawa (the same liberal party for 12 years is starting to be a lot corrupted. It has stayed to long in power as we don't have the two mandates rule here), the souveranist option is at the highest since a long time. AND with alberta not wanting to share is money with the other provinces (who are poor, let's face it). The Canada will go trough the biggest zone of turbulence in his history in the next 10 years.

still Canada is still possible to save, given that everyone make is effort (including Québec)

Expecting a little respect

Francis Latour

 

[Kudos]

I agree with franlato on most aspects. A federalist system should be the best route to go, if it wasn't there would be 3x the amount of countries in the world today. But the current federalist system in Canada is not properly dealing with wealth distribution. In a word it is giving too much to the poor. Too much investment is put into places that no one wants to invest in; if someone did then the places wouldn't be so poor! In the process, Ontario and Quebec are ignored, taxed to death with our social programs cut in the process (that's not suppose to happen). If Alberta wasn't such an arrogant "lone wolf" and didn't have all the oil wealth it would be in the same boat but, alas, it does.

Quebec is entitled to independence and the benefits that come with it (which is essentially indepdent policy making. Social, economic, political etc.). The problem is that the whole movement is so demonized that people loose sight of how reasonable a wish for independence really is.

No one needs a reason for freedom but if Quebec needed an excuse it could argue that any place with as many exclusive cheeses as it has surely deserves a spot amongst nations.

 

[franlato]

It will be independant someday if nothing is done... it's a certainty... it's all about people being frustrated by to much poverty and unfairness. It's not about "what is to best way to go" it's about "we have to do something, don't we?".

I wonder how usa is dealing with is growing poverty( I mean looots of poor neigboors here, big corporation are illusions, america is no longer rich), is exponentialy inflating debt and is growing bad reputation all over the world... I know big corporation are controling the media (ie : the liberty of expression) ... The people in smalltown USA will have a bad time waking up from a disfunctionnal governement who is uterly lying to americans.

Man, I swear that as a canadian i'm the best friend of the average Usa cityzen. That's why I didn't went to Irak.

 

[grzelakc]

Kudos, you're joking right?

Ottawa keeps propping the auto industry in Ontario at the expense of all other provinces it's not even funny! Countless bilions are sunk into the auto industry propped by the trade union mafiosos. The whole country suffers as a result.

When asked why my province didn't get any federal support for our local (very promising, high tech) project, my MP replied that "Ontario's" auto industry gets priority because it's the heart of Canadian economy. Give me a bloody break!!!

 

[franlato]

Kudos, you're joking right?

Ottawa keeps propping the auto industry in Ontario at the expense of all other provinces it's not even funny! Countless bilions are sunk into the auto industry propped by the trade union mafiosos. The whole country suffers as a result.

When asked why my province didn't get any federal support for our local (very promising, high tech) project, my MP replied that "Ontario's" auto industry gets priority because it's the heart of Canadian economy. Give me a bloody break!!!

don't get me wrong, you are right. Can somebody blame all those people being egoistic? They are putting their energy where they can get the most votes... leaving Québec to the bloc Québecois (witch is, when you think of it the most democraticly crazy idea of all time. like putting a, let's say, california separatist party in washington)

edit : no, the Canada shouldn't be in civilization as we are really far away from England, or France, or Greeks in therm of accomplishment.
And yes the USA should be, even if it's just for the fact they were one of the first contry to send human into space (cIV does still have the alpha centaury thing in it, don't it?)

 

[Chopperhead]

I know Im going to offend people by saying this but I dont care. so to hell with Quebec . Im so sick of Quebec. All they do is ***** and complain about every single piece of legislation that comes out of Ottawa and every law has to be changed to suit Quebec or they use the Notwithstanding clause and dont follow it anyway. It's because of Quebec that we are a Bi-lingual country and pass laws to protect both languages and they get all worked up about haveing french on things but yet if you go to Quebec they dont have any bloody english signs. in the 80's I belive it was even against the law to have english signs posted outside. ( could be wrong about the time frame).
I think it's about time we get a PM who will stand up to quebec and say enough is enough you ARE part of Canada so learn to live with it and stop making exceptions for them. on the point of the 2/3 majority i dont believe thats the law. what it says is that they must win by a CLEAR majority however what a clear majority is has not been defined just another little trick that old Jean threw in there just in case **** hit the fan. I really dont want to loose Quebec and think after 2 referndums the government of Canada should simply not allow it.

Now to talk about actual seperation they want to still use our army, our currency and have all the benifits of being part of Canada just they want to make their own laws is basically what it comes down to. Although this wouldnt really be any diffrent then things are now anyway.

- I dont hate Quebec or anything like that Im just really tired of the whole seperation thing like isn't 2 referendums enough. I understand you have a unique culture and want to preserve it but this is just getting riduculous. I seriously dont know how you feel that the Federal government doesnt respect Quebec or anything like that when almost all laws are modified to suit Quebec if anyone should be pissed off about the government not hearing them it's Sask.

 

[franlato]

I know Im going to offend people by saying this but I dont care. so to hell with Quebec . Im so sick of Quebec. All they do is ***** and complain about every single piece of legislation that comes out of Ottawa and every law has to be changed to suit Quebec or they use the Notwithstanding clause and dont follow it anyway. It's because of Quebec that we are a Bi-lingual country and pass laws to protect both languages and they get all worked up about haveing french on things but yet if you go to Quebec they dont have any bloody english signs. in the 80's I belive it was even against the law to have english signs posted outside. ( could be wrong about the time frame).
I think it's about time we get a PM who will stand up to quebec and say enough is enough you ARE part of Canada so learn to live with it and stop making exceptions for them. on the point of the 2/3 majority i dont believe thats the law. what it says is that they must win by a CLEAR majority however what a clear majority is has not been defined just another little trick that old Jean threw in there just in case **** hit the fan. I really dont want to loose Quebec and think after 2 referndums the government of Canada should simply not allow it.

Now to talk about actual seperation they want to still use our army, our currency and have all the benifits of being part of Canada just they want to make their own laws is basically what it comes down to. Although this wouldnt really be any diffrent then things are now anyway.

- I dont hate Quebec or anything like that Im just really tired of the whole seperation thing like isn't 2 referendums enough. I understand you have a unique culture and want to preserve it but this is just getting riduculous. I seriously dont know how you feel that the Federal government doesnt respect Quebec or anything like that when almost all laws are modified to suit Quebec if anyone should be pissed off about the government not hearing them it's Sask.

- the law is the fabulous 101 law, (listen to a hockey game, they sign in french only if the Canadian de Montréal are playing. Talk about unfair... I mean, hockey in Québec is almost a religion. The list could go on and on and on.
- the canada did 3 consecutive (month after month) referendum in newfoundland to get it to be the 10th province in 49.
- the way democracy work is by getting 50 + 1 for winning. The separatists did loose 2 times so far. You'll have to learn to accept democratic laws.
- can confirm that in the next referendum we will have it clear that we will have our own "peace keeping" army. Keeping the current Canadian equipement and bases here in Quebec. It goes with sharing the dept.
- name me the law who was modified to suit the Quebec and then I will believe you. All this is just wild rumours as laws are voted by 75% people who don't come from Quebec. How can they vote a law modified for Quebec, it's unrealistic. The laws need to suits the most canadians possible...

I don't know however why you don't want to lose Quebec so much if you think so badly of them... I think it would be constructive to review the way we cooperate as it is no more productive (as you put it so well). And yes, the Sask. should be heard. I don't want them to be as badly taxed then we are here in Quebec. It would be destructive for them.

 

[Tharak]

To both this and grzelakc it should be noted that the likelihood of Canada remaining unified upon an independent Quebec is highly unlikely. Quebec, Alberta and Ontario are Canada. The other provinces offer wonderful things but in the end it's these 3 powerhouses and B.C that keep the country running.

I have heard nothing of this new 2/3 majority law so I'd need to see some proof. The last time you checked on separatism must have been a while back. The current corruption scandal has soiled the federal and provincial liberals and refueled the soverignty movement. A PQ government in the next provincal election along with the continuing trend for independence is very much a possibility and a sucessful yes vote should not be ignored like some conspiracy theory (unless of course this 2/3 majority rule is true - which I doubt - in which case it can be safely said it will never happen).

This was spoken off the top of my head - further digging shows that they haven't set a number, but that there must be a "clear majority" for Parliament to accept succession.

I find it interesting that a scandal run by Quebecquois, supporting Quebecquois with Federal money could give more support to the PQ. However, a poll done this summer showed support for soverignty to be about 50-54%.

There are plenty of reasons for Quebec's indepedence and plenty of reasons for staying in confederation. But these horror stories of a ravaged economy and global isolation are absurd. North Americans seem to forget that most continents are occupied by more then 3 countries in an easy vertical stack.
There are lots of landlocked countries, though Quebec wouldn't be one of them, and using another countries air space for economic purposes would not be some new precedent.

Name me 2 other counties who are surrounded on 3 sides by a single country. I'm always surprised that seperatists (and others) simply assume that Canada will happily supply Quebec with the power/money/transport/infrastructure/etc it needs after so badly damaging the country. Do they think that Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, New Brunswick and PEI are going to simply allow Quebec free reign and passage? Doubtful - all 4 provinces would be absolutely screwed, and unlikely to offer Quebec anything without a steep price.

 

[Tharak]

1. reinvent our democracy (making it participative, not representative (there will be organized forums with veto votes in the national chamber)
2. making the independance with a well oiled plan based on the good intentions of all our english friends. (usa and Canada)


this independance is, by the way, to make possible for canada to have a coherent foreign policy.
(a pool said that english speaking canadians where for the war in Irak, as an exemple)

This is simply not true. I've lived in 3 provinces in the last 3 years, all English speaking, and every one of them were against the war in Iraq. I think you should take some of this information with a grain of salt. As for conscription - the vast majority of Canadians were against it - not just quebec.

Our foreign policy isn't divided on the issue of Quebec, any more than it is along the differences between Alberta and Newfoundland. I'd point out the millions of different reasons why Quebec isn't the only province who feels abandoned by Ottawa (go talk to a Newfoundlander with no job now that Ottawa has sold all the fish to Europe - or someone from BC or Alberta who don't feel they are getting a voice in parliament). Again - you are falling victem to propaganda - because it sounds good - a lot of what you've said simply isn't true.

and to do what we want with our money (not that we will have more of it, we will just be able to control it the way we want without having to argue with other provinces. (even the federalist partys have to do that... it says why it such a problem)

Quebec currently has unparalleled ability to do what it wants with its money. The only group in the country with more direct control over its own cash flow are the various native bands.

Helped with so many corruption in Ottawa (the same liberal party for 12 years is starting to be a lot corrupted. It has stayed to long in power as we don't have the two mandates rule here), the souveranist option is at the highest since a long time. AND with alberta not wanting to share is money with the other provinces (who are poor, let's face it). The Canada will go trough the biggest zone of turbulence in his history in the next 10 years.

Quebec has had the opportunity to change the government themselves the last several elections - however, the vast majority in Quebec voted for the Bloc (a federal party that doesn't exist outside Quebec, and therefore can never be a majority in government) and the liberals (a surprisingly large number). Had Quebec voted for some of the national parties, the government would not be what it has been the last 12 years. It all comes down to numbers - Ontario and Quebec are the biggest, but since Quebec casts its votes in an insular fashion, whoever Ontario votes for essentially wins.

Expecting a little respect

Francis Latour

Hope I gave some - just trying to point out some fallacies (as people have pointed out mine in the aforementioned discussion.. )

 

[grzelakc]

Quebec got the lion share of Newfoundlands oil revenue. So much so that Newfies began to question the viability of their oil exploration because for that province it was virtually. Additionally all profit from electicity exports to the US generated in Newfoundland was siphoned to Quebec. Again Newfies did not see a penny of it.

I don't think Quebecers even realise how parasitical their provincial politics are and how they hurt the economies of Atlantic Canada by making outrageous demans from Otttawa.

 

[franlato]

I see an unneeded pride in the last posts. Let's keep it friendly. Quebec will cooperate with the maritimes provinces and east canada will cooperate with Quebec.

Do you think of the disaster it would be if anybody close it's border?

supply Quebec with the power/money/transport/infrastructure/etc?

we already have those. Currently supplying north USA and NB with hydro power (altough we are running out of)

 

[franlato]

Newfoundland no longer count their oil revenu in the sharing since about 1 year ago. Do I have to tell you that the Atlantic provinces are the poorest? And that Ontario and Alberta are keeping them alive?

 

[Tharak]

I don't know however why you don't want to lose Quebec so much if you think so badly of them... I think it would be constructive to review the way we cooperate as it is no more productive (as you put it so well). And yes, the Sask. should be heard. I don't want them to be as badly taxed then we are here in Quebec. It would be destructive for them.

Its because he's out here on the west coast - and like most Canadians west of Quebec, they have no idea (nor do most care) what goes on out east. The maritimes would be totally screwed if Quebec separated - unable to easily get anywhere, but with nothing to offer Quebec or the US from a production standpoint.

I'll plead a bit of ignorance here, but isn't a significant part of the tax issue in Quebec of its own making? I mean its the second biggest producing province in Canada, and is either second or third in per capita federal funding - yet its provincial taxes are among the highest in the country ...if it were a federal issue, wouldn't that not be the case? Maybe I'm misremembering my stats though..?

 

[Tharak]

Quebec got the lion share of Newfoundlands oil revenue. So much so that Newfies began to question the viability of their oil exploration because for that province it was virtually. Additionally all profit from electicity exports to the US generated in Newfoundland was siphoned to Quebec. Again Newfies did not see a penny of it.

I don't think Quebecers even realise how parasitical their provincial politics are and how they hurt the economies of Atlantic Canada by making outrageous demans from Otttawa.

The NFLD issue was, unfortunately, of their own making. The Premier made stupid deals, and for some didn't even put an end date on them (they go on for perpetuity!!). I don't blame Quebec for taking the best deal it could if newfoundland were stupid enough to agree to themm

 

[ehBeaver]

(go talk to a Newfoundlander with no job now that Ottawa has sold all the fish to Europe - or someone from BC or Alberta who don't feel they are getting a voice in parliament)

So true, ottawa dosent care about BC.