Capto Iugulum: 1920 - 1939

[Jehoshua]

OOC@Jehoshua- I certainly do wish that my response had been longer and more elegantly written, as is befitting of a man such as Ole, who is quite fond of intellectual wrangling. While do not follow how you think that diplomacy is impossible with traditional proles, I do follow the rest of your points, though I disagree with them in character.

OOC: Im not saying diplomacy is impossible, Im saying any dialogue ideologically with them is impossible. Ergo you can of course make treaties and so forth regarding trade, or border arrangement and so forth with proletarist powers, but ultimately trying to get a proletarist state to allow other opinion, or otherwise act against its ideology (pertinent in Jamaica's case since the end goal presumably would be to end the proletarian tyranny) is a fruitless endeavour.

Vinland, being primarily Protestant with many Orthodox influences, has a religious tradition that lacks the unified, centralized nature found in predominately Catholic nations. I imagine it's quite likely that the Vatican would point to this as a leading reason for Vinland's tendency towards interpretation and relativity. Additionally, Gudrunsson, and the democratic, social proletarist intellectual position that he represents, tends to extend this outlook even further. While Ole holds himself to a moral code informed by his Vinlandic Lutheran culture and upbringing, he has come to recognize the diversity of outlooks that exist, and has generally become disenchanted with the idea that there are universally-agreeable moral criteria. It is possible for groups to possess flawed moral systems. Thus, in his view, democracy makes way for moral governance by electing the party whose views most closely reflect the predominant morality of the populace.

Ergo, religious error has translated into ideological error (although Eastern Orthodoxy does have a definitive moral platform like the Catholic Faith) and Gudrunsson, being proletarist himself is as such part of the very problem I point out which explains his opposition despite the inherent reasonability of the Holy Sees commentary and his own implicit recognition of the problem

Anyway, to address a few specific points: there was no diplomacy before Brazil's invasion. The diplomacy I mentioned took place after the rather unexpected invasion.

Ahk, amended my IC messge slightly to ditch the factual error. Still my main point remains that diplomacy was tried and that it failed, and that its subjective to say that Brazils action, in its own calculus, was not a last resort.

 

[SouthernKing]

OOC: A city which happened to be in the potential path of the asteroid that exploded in Siberia in OTL? You people are a bunch of whiners with no imagination. This could have happened and it is going to have a huge effect on the space age in this NES.

OOC: Sure, but the chances of said asteroid/comet directly hitting Constantinople/Istanbul, as I believe was the situation described, are infinitesimal at best. And even then, this would be a different object from Tunguska, unless it just happened to show up along the exact same path as OTL five years early.
I can't say I disagree about that last bit though.

 

[Bair_the_Normal]

OOC: Sure, but the chances of said asteroid/comet directly hitting Constantinople/Istanbul, as I believe was the situation described, are infinitesimal at best. And even then, this would be a different object from Tunguska, unless it just happened to show up along the exact same path as OTL five years early.
I can't say I disagree about that last bit though.

So long as there is a chance, no matter how small, you can't disregard that chance.

 

[talonschild]

And anyway, in fiction, probability is generally willing to serve drama as a halfpenny harlot.

 

[Terrance888]

Rule of cool wins.

Or in this case, rule of megaton explosions.

 

[SamSniped]

When in doubt, C4.
If that won't work, asteroid.

 

[SouthernKing]

When in doubt, C4.
If that won't work, asteroid.

Personally, I prefer gamma ray bursts. Much neater.

 

[Terrance888]

We need showers and ovens. Stat.

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

OOC: Sure, but the chances of said asteroid/comet directly hitting Constantinople/Istanbul, as I believe was the situation described, are infinitesimal at best. And even then, this would be a different object from Tunguska, unless it just happened to show up along the exact same path as OTL five years early.
I can't say I disagree about that last bit though.

Technically, it was equally infinitesimally unlikely for the Tunguska asteroid to hit exactly where it did. What your trying to say is asteroids would more likely miss cities, but there are a number of cities which sprawl the earth, so it is still within the realm of realism for an asteroid with a random chance of hitting anywhere, to hit somewhere urban.

 

[Lord of Elves]

It was highly convenient (or, well, inconvenient) for the Constantinople Event to occur in Constantinople instead of random Siberian marshland and forest. That doesn't mean it was implausible, however.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

A lot depends on the angle at which it hit the atmosphere. At any rate, I think the lesson we take from the Constantinople Event is that this world, while very similar to Earth, is not on such a similar alternate history that you would see Krakatoa, Tunguska, Toba, and various other natural disasters happening at the same times they did in OTL. Thus, this world is more like an imperfect copy of Earth than a precise replica.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Thus, this world is more like an imperfect copy of Earth than a precise replica.

Well, you know, it was built by mice.

 

[Grandkhan]

It actually can't be the same Earth because if it was, the meteorite would absolutely have to hit Tunguska. The motions of bodies in orbit is pretty clearly fixed by gravitational forces and whatever happens on earth has no baring on its rotation and movement and the movement of other astronomical bodies.

Its absolutely not random in any way, shape and form, things like meteorite impacts happen at very precise places due to the impact being the intersection between the Earth's and the meteorite's orbit.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, I'm not a physicist. I just know a little about conics.

 

[Luckymoose]

So you're saying in an alternate timeline stretching centuries there could not be a single asteroid slightly off OTL target? You give OTL too much credit.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

It actually can't be the same Earth because if it was, the meteorite would absolutely have to hit Tunguska. The motions of bodies in orbit is pretty clearly fixed by gravitational forces and whatever happens on earth has no baring on its rotation and movement and the movement of other astronomical bodies.

Its absolutely not random in any way, shape and form, things like meteorite impacts happen at very precise places due to the impact being the intersection between the Earth's and the meteorite's orbit.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, I'm not a physicist. I just know a little about conics.

Well, if the Tunguska bolide had struck earth rather than bursting in midair, it still would have hit in Siberia. No amount of atmospheric resistance would significantly change that. However, if the earth were moved, or if the asteroid were delayed by only a few minutes, it could have hit any number of places. As no human activity prior to spaceflight can affect orbits to a significant degree, then we basically have to invoke alien interference.

 

[talonschild]

Or some other butterfly effect, implying two PoDs: one terrestrial and one cosmic.

 

[Luckymoose]

Moralists believe it was a message to the Orthodox Patriarchs, delayed by centuries, from God, smiting them for the schism.

 

[Jehoshua]

ooc: Obstinate refusal to return to unity with the Catholic Church over the course of centuries of effort to effect such unity perhaps Luckymoose. Afterall 800 or so years is quite a time, even to a merciful Lord who is slow to rise to anger.

 

[Tyo]

So you're saying in an alternate timeline stretching centuries there could not be a single asteroid slightly off OTL target? You give OTL too much credit.

Well nothing in those hundreds of years changes outside of Earth. It is physically very improbable, and I'd dare to say impossible.

But the fact that it's an event in this game means that things outside of earth have changed if only slightly. It's really up to the person that runs the game, because such a change would be a matter of physics doing something weird and the person in charge of the game is parallel to the local deity.

So you're both right.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Much of the premise and background of this NES make very little sense, and were not intended to from the start. Exercise the Mystery Science Theatre 3000 rule and calm down, everyone.