JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Oh God. Everything makes sense now.
Capto Iugulum Background Thread
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
Blue Bacon 3
Prince
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- Jun 10, 2012
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Not to newcomers, I hope nothing bad happened though.
Bunch of interesting ideas brought up in the past twelve hours or so, but I feel I should weigh in on religion. There is definitely a protestant/catholic divide in France, mostly geographically based, which spryllino skillfully avoided by refusing to acknowledge any religious differences or issues in this NES.
Religion taken globally can also address the new ideology of moralism. In OTL the First World War gutted the faith of most of the world's religions, as priests of all faiths chose nationalism over religion. Due to this, after the war (and even to this day) the backbone of faith and religion in Europe was shattered. Events in this timeline have taken a different course for a variety of reasons I could go indepth upon another time.
Here, the war lasted a slightly shorter amount of time, and while it was larger than OTL WW1 in both scale and losses, there were not the same level of proportionate losses for individual nations. No nation suffered the same percentage of losses as france of OTL, or even the same percentage losses as Britian or Germany. While that's the main reason the anti-war movement has been more subdued here (at least the anti-war related to the Great War). At the same time, the various faiths of the nations involved (with Russia as a solitary glaring exception) were either neutral or outright against the war effort.
Combine that fact with the fact that proletarist parties and unions were very pro-war, we have a reverse scenario to OTL, as notable socialists OTL were the main bastions against involvement in the Great War. Due to this switchup, we have an interesting situation which allowed various Churches to thrive in the period between 1908-1920. Combined with the new war against the Arabian Empire and the Papacy's support of anti-liberal/proletarist ideals, we've seen a social-religious shift in new generations.
What would be called the "Greatest Generation" in OTL America, is growing up at this point in the NES and is entering into the political world. This global generation served as the ideological fodder for radical ideologies such as fascism and communism. Here, they are turning to the Church. Of course the implications and results of this are yet to be seen, but as moderator, I believe the events in South America are the opening salvo of something not yet fully developed, but assuming an unique political role in this timeline's history.
Of course in 1900 I also thought that Spain and UK would finally bury the hatchet (into the Confederation's back), so hey, what do I know?
Religion taken globally can also address the new ideology of moralism. In OTL the First World War gutted the faith of most of the world's religions, as priests of all faiths chose nationalism over religion. Due to this, after the war (and even to this day) the backbone of faith and religion in Europe was shattered. Events in this timeline have taken a different course for a variety of reasons I could go indepth upon another time.
Here, the war lasted a slightly shorter amount of time, and while it was larger than OTL WW1 in both scale and losses, there were not the same level of proportionate losses for individual nations. No nation suffered the same percentage of losses as france of OTL, or even the same percentage losses as Britian or Germany. While that's the main reason the anti-war movement has been more subdued here (at least the anti-war related to the Great War). At the same time, the various faiths of the nations involved (with Russia as a solitary glaring exception) were either neutral or outright against the war effort.
Combine that fact with the fact that proletarist parties and unions were very pro-war, we have a reverse scenario to OTL, as notable socialists OTL were the main bastions against involvement in the Great War. Due to this switchup, we have an interesting situation which allowed various Churches to thrive in the period between 1908-1920. Combined with the new war against the Arabian Empire and the Papacy's support of anti-liberal/proletarist ideals, we've seen a social-religious shift in new generations.
What would be called the "Greatest Generation" in OTL America, is growing up at this point in the NES and is entering into the political world. This global generation served as the ideological fodder for radical ideologies such as fascism and communism. Here, they are turning to the Church. Of course the implications and results of this are yet to be seen, but as moderator, I believe the events in South America are the opening salvo of something not yet fully developed, but assuming an unique political role in this timeline's history.
Of course in 1900 I also thought that Spain and UK would finally bury the hatchet (into the Confederation's back), so hey, what do I know?
Blue Bacon 3
Prince
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- Jun 10, 2012
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- 401
Moralism is one of those things that make this NES seem really different (the black on purple color scheme of the Moralist conference is making me a bit nervous though), I'm wondering about all the ways it might evolve in a few decades...
So Paris and Burgundy will only have been united for 89 years (from 1837 to 1926 I just fount out) by the time they hold the referendum, I think there's a chance they might split even though they united peacefully. I'm guessing the colonies that go are Egypt (possible confusion or sabotage during the swap), and both Spanish and Confederate Central Africa (no forces in the former, and possible confusion when forces perhaps don't know which nation they belong to in the latter). I'm guessing Algeria and Angola are probably safe after all due to 8 stability in the former and escalation in the other being less likely than the three other colonies (with 10 referendums and Benin already counted in).
So Paris and Burgundy will only have been united for 89 years (from 1837 to 1926 I just fount out) by the time they hold the referendum, I think there's a chance they might split even though they united peacefully. I'm guessing the colonies that go are Egypt (possible confusion or sabotage during the swap), and both Spanish and Confederate Central Africa (no forces in the former, and possible confusion when forces perhaps don't know which nation they belong to in the latter). I'm guessing Algeria and Angola are probably safe after all due to 8 stability in the former and escalation in the other being less likely than the three other colonies (with 10 referendums and Benin already counted in).
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Moralism could be the savior of this broken world.
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
IC: Moralism is merely a tool to put countries in the pocket of the Catholic Church.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Fixed.
Blue Bacon 3
Prince
- Joined
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- 401
OOC: So was the Orthodox Church in Russia weakened by the war due to being coopted by nationalist forces despite having supported it on its way to victory?
Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
- Joined
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Taking OOC comments and using them as IC blackmail = the cheapest thing I've personally witnessed in an NES
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Exactly why people like you shouldn't allowed near a NES.
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
I'm super curious. What gave you that idea?
Spain vs the UK was, like, the ultimate conflict that drove the NES. I personally was of the impression that it would never end. When I was playing as CI, I never really thought of the Confederation as my ultimate enemy as much as I did the UK and Brazil.
Frankly, I never wanted them as an enemy at all because I was going for a Europe united against Britain.
Circuit
Writing Letters
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Will never happen. Total rubbish.
Yeah, generally I was terrible at diplomacy as Spain. I made about 5000 mistakes.
Generally, diplomacy as a whole has never been my strong suit. I buggered up with New Spain in the 1800s and then repeated the same mistakes with Denmark about 80 years later.
On that note, I'm thinking of banging up a big post about exactly what went wrong with the League of Nations and what I was trying to do with it.
EDIT: On that note, if anybody doesn't want me to talk about something, especially the stuff about its origins as a BLANK to get BLANK BLANK BLANK let me know by PM before I indadvertedly say something implicating.
Right, well, here's what I have to say about French nationalism and religion.
- I have not had to deal with any religious issues because there have not been any at all. I have not skirted around the problem: if EQ had thrown anything at me of the sort, I would have happily dealt with it. But really, there's no very good reason as far as I can see why the Catholics and Protestants (presumably Calvinists) in France shouldn't have coexisted in mutual toleration, as I expect they're thoroughly mixed in with each other by now anyway. All this living in the same society as each other without any great problems occuring (and I maintain it's entirely EQ's responsibility to determine if and when religious problems occur) is, I think, likely to ensure a greater degree of tolerance and even religious scepticism than is found elsewhere in Europe. So on the whole, I think that religion, after so many years of being not a problem, shouldn't be a major problem now.
- French nationalism does have a history. There were French nationalists in the 19th century before the Confederation came into being, and they threw their weight behind the Confederation itself, and were largely subsumed into the ideology of Confederation. That means that Confederation ought to have the weight of nationalistic fervour behind it. Also, I should add that there haven't been any customs boundaries in the Confederation since the 1830s, and everyone has probably moved round the country an enormous amount since then, bringing about mingling. In particular, Paris and Burgundy are full of people from the other regions, but the same goes the other way. So I am of the strong opinion that the effect of losing the German and Italian population on Confederational ideology will be to make Confederational ideology retreat to being about the Confederation of all French people - which to a large extent is equivalent to French nationalism.
- I have not had to deal with any religious issues because there have not been any at all. I have not skirted around the problem: if EQ had thrown anything at me of the sort, I would have happily dealt with it. But really, there's no very good reason as far as I can see why the Catholics and Protestants (presumably Calvinists) in France shouldn't have coexisted in mutual toleration, as I expect they're thoroughly mixed in with each other by now anyway. All this living in the same society as each other without any great problems occuring (and I maintain it's entirely EQ's responsibility to determine if and when religious problems occur) is, I think, likely to ensure a greater degree of tolerance and even religious scepticism than is found elsewhere in Europe. So on the whole, I think that religion, after so many years of being not a problem, shouldn't be a major problem now.
- French nationalism does have a history. There were French nationalists in the 19th century before the Confederation came into being, and they threw their weight behind the Confederation itself, and were largely subsumed into the ideology of Confederation. That means that Confederation ought to have the weight of nationalistic fervour behind it. Also, I should add that there haven't been any customs boundaries in the Confederation since the 1830s, and everyone has probably moved round the country an enormous amount since then, bringing about mingling. In particular, Paris and Burgundy are full of people from the other regions, but the same goes the other way. So I am of the strong opinion that the effect of losing the German and Italian population on Confederational ideology will be to make Confederational ideology retreat to being about the Confederation of all French people - which to a large extent is equivalent to French nationalism.
Jehoshua
Catholic
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Ergo, I've been encouraging religious piety and aggressively attacking godless ideologies that are anathema to the Catholic faith ever since the Italian Question was resolved in a manner that preserved temporal sovereignty for the Holy See. Moralism is a product of that concerted effort to combat what to the Catholic Religion are effectively heretical ideologies and promote the faith as the remedy to the fundamental egotism and relativism inherent to those same doctrines that within the context of the game can be said to have caused the conflicts of the age.
At any rate. I've actually not done much to interfere with what i'd consider to be secular affairs since the italian war. Although I suppose now that moralism is reaching critical mass I'm going to be concerned with ensuring that moralism does not morph into something contrary to Catholic teaching, and that it doesn't simply become an extension of national interests which shall possibly make the Papacy more involved in temporal affairs once more (depending on what occurs). [that and Italy iirc gave me the Holy Land this turn, which should be interesting...]
Circuit
Writing Letters
Bolded portion is inevitable. That I promise you.
Jehoshua
Catholic
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- 7,284
What I mean by the bolded portion is in terms of the doctrines of the moralist political ideology. Ergo, my interest would likely be in ensuring it conforms with Catholicism and isn't tainted by things contrary to the faith.
Im fully aware of, and consigned to, the fact that nations will use moralism and religious virtue to justify various actions they intend to take.
Circuit
Writing Letters
I see. We seem to be on the same page, then. I'm fairly certain that, should moralism reach the same strength as OTL Nazism/Communism, there will be the return of the Crusades (though not necessarily in the Middle East).
Speaking of which, I'm fairly certain that the Italians would be calling the Arab War another Crusade, while Germany and Britain probably just call it the Arab War.
