Is this in theory or in practice? In practice its pretty inconsistent on a typical map. Also it takes a lot of hammers to build 2 quinqeuremes and they don't fight barbarians
Carthage
- Thread starter Funak
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pineappledan
Deity
just in theory right now. I haven't got the time to play a game
Carthage is a perfect example that an early bonus (even if not that great) is worth way more than better bonus later on. At least in human hands, as AI is not consistently excellent. And QQ aren't even near the best UU in the game.
Mad Madigan
Prince
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- Jun 15, 2016
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- 403
Carthage is the points leader in my current 10-17-2 game (The Netherlands/Communitas/Large Map/Emperor), but it's because of their location/neighbors/religion/policies and not so much their QQ ships. Even with so many coastal cities on a Large Communitas map, Carthage AI was not able to crush other AI Civs in that tight window between getting and building QQs, and coastal cities getting walls up and Swordsmen/Skirmishers to defend them. Maybe I could have with human forethought, but I was too busy scalping the AI for luxury trade deals to feed my UA as William of Orange. Carthage beat me to Caravels as well, but as long as I can make it to Astronomy for my UU I think I can retake the naval arms race. Plus, if I can capture and upgrade a few old QQ ships... 
pineappledan
Deity
Jan 1-3 patch just punched a whole clean through Carthage.
- They get +2 TRs, but now that's only +1 than what everyone else gets.
- Progress just got hammered, and Carthage is THE progress civ
- purchasing units just got hammered, and Carthage is all about the gold
Gothic_Empire
AKA, Ramen Empire
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Eh, we'll see. The extra culture on their free light-houses, impressive UU, and gold on settling are all still really good.
All of which are mostly relevant in the early game really. Between the nerfs to Progress and gold purchases, I feel Carthage might become too dependent on snowballing, at least more than before.
How about adding some scaling to the number of trade routes?
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This is possibly true, but Carthage was borderline OP before hand.
Additionally, the cost to invest in buildings early on is reportedly lowered to like 40 gold per monument. Until that gets changed back this civ is ridiculously too strong
Chandler
Warlord
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- May 18, 2016
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- 195
Kinda offtopic now, and not sure if this should go here or in the thread of wonders (also, it might have been already discussed in the past). But... I've been thinking about Carthage and Lighthouses recently. Carthage is the only civ that gets a free building since the beginning of every game, in every city. And while this is strong and maybe also thematic, it creates a weird antisynergy with the Great Lighthouse.
I don't know if this is intended or not. But having a normal Lighthouse already built in every city, makes building the GL less appealing. Which is a shame, if we take into account that as Carthage you'll want most, if not all of your cities, to be coastal, and also the UU of Carthage with the Reconaissance promotions and how it'd benefit them. So... currently Carthage is a very coastal oriented civ that finds GL somewhat less appealing. How about giving something to the GL if you already had a Lighthouse in the city?
I know, there are many more wonders which give free buildings, and that could make a precedent. But, again, Carthage is the only civ that can't do "anything" about it. I mean, yeah, you could always destroy the first free lighthouse for a bit of money before the new one is constructed. But... I don't know. That seems a bad alternative to me.
I don't know if this is intended or not. But having a normal Lighthouse already built in every city, makes building the GL less appealing. Which is a shame, if we take into account that as Carthage you'll want most, if not all of your cities, to be coastal, and also the UU of Carthage with the Reconaissance promotions and how it'd benefit them. So... currently Carthage is a very coastal oriented civ that finds GL somewhat less appealing. How about giving something to the GL if you already had a Lighthouse in the city?
I know, there are many more wonders which give free buildings, and that could make a precedent. But, again, Carthage is the only civ that can't do "anything" about it. I mean, yeah, you could always destroy the first free lighthouse for a bit of money before the new one is constructed. But... I don't know. That seems a bad alternative to me.
Its still often worth building in my opinion. I don't even destroy the first lighthouse, I just spend all the hammers just for naval movement boost (also avoids an awkward situaiton where you lose your lighthouse if you miss the wonder)
ElliotS
Warmonger
I've had times where I BUILT a lighthouse, got a great engineer and still used him to rush the great lighthouse. +1 naval movement all game is worth a lot. There's no issue here imo.
This brings up the issue of wonders providing buildings that you already have. Sometimes it can feel a little game-y avoiding a certain tech or building that you know a wonder you're aiming for would provide. It's made even worse when you end up losing the race.
It also occurs with certain policies as well.
One could argue that some sort of compensation would be somewhat fair, at least to minimize the impact of "feelsbadman". Something that wouldn't make it worthwhile to abuse. I would suggest a small infusion of production, maybe at quarter cost, but I'm not sure how difficult it is or if it's even worth it.
*shrug* Something to ponder.
It also occurs with certain policies as well.
One could argue that some sort of compensation would be somewhat fair, at least to minimize the impact of "feelsbadman". Something that wouldn't make it worthwhile to abuse. I would suggest a small infusion of production, maybe at quarter cost, but I'm not sure how difficult it is or if it's even worth it.
*shrug* Something to ponder.
ElliotS
Warmonger
I don't think it is. Risk-reward right now is fine imo.
I agree with regards to the wonder, but don't you think it's game-y to avoid buildings because you're aiming for a wonder down the line?
One example is Temple + Hagia Sophia. I avoid building a Temple because I'd rather just get the free one without wasting production, but often I just end up building it anyway.
Sometimes it's two wonders giving the same free building, often much later. Do you just avoid building walls til you get Great Wall? Castles before Alhambra or Himeji? What if you took Nobility?
Ultimately it doesn't really matter that much. Just a thought.
ElliotS
Warmonger
I think that choosing if you want to build walls before great wall is part of the risk/reward. Removing it just lowers the skill cap.
Also its thematic. If the great lighthouse wasn't a lighthouse, people would complain. You could make it have lighthouse qualities itself, but stacking two lighthouses would probably be too strong
Txurce
Deity
Carthage is one of my favorite civs. Like Crazy G said, they were right up there with the superpowers (not OP). While somewhat nerfed, here is why I think they're more than fine:
- lost a 1-TR advantage: this cuts their edge, but is still a decent advantage.
- Progress got hammered: I pick Progress for Carthage because God of Commerce synergizes perfectly with Carthage's free lighthouses, and guarantees a religion. None of this changed at all. Whatever Progress lost doesn't hurt them any more than anyone else, except for the few classic Tradition civs.
- purchasing units got hammered only in terms of XP, which is almost totally irrelevant wen you found a city and have the 175g starter package. After that, there are plenty of better places to invest Carthage's gold than units. This is a nerf, but a minor one.
kawyua
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2015
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- 226
I wonder how wide carthage can go with building purchasing being so much cheaper...
Anyways, I've always been confused with what I should be doing with all the gold I get, so I'll be interested in hearing how people play her start now. I'm not sure how I should be approaching her...
Is great lighthouse really necessary for carthage? I'd imagine that it wouldn't be that important to her, unless its a map full of coasts. Sailing is kind of a hard tech to be rushing for
Anyways, I've always been confused with what I should be doing with all the gold I get, so I'll be interested in hearing how people play her start now. I'm not sure how I should be approaching her...
Is great lighthouse really necessary for carthage? I'd imagine that it wouldn't be that important to her, unless its a map full of coasts. Sailing is kind of a hard tech to be rushing for
I suppose how you use your early gold is up to you, but here's a couple things I've done.
Like Txurce, my Pantheon is often Commerce, but sometimes God of the Sea. Either way, I use the extra gold to pump out Shrines, Monuments, Fishing Boats, and a military unit if I need one.
Then you have nice options - you can use extra gold to go straight up Warmonger (whether or not you picked Authority). You can use that gold to just get crazy strong cities (and keep founding more and more). Both Culture and Diplomacy victories are an easy grasp as I see it. I'd agree that Great Lighthouse isn't a priority to go for, but I would still build it if it was available to me.
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