Carthage

[Workerspam]

I wonder how wide carthage can go with building purchasing being so much cheaper...

Anyways, I've always been confused with what I should be doing with all the gold I get, so I'll be interested in hearing how people play her start now. I'm not sure how I should be approaching her...

My first game with the 1/3 patch is as Carthage (Emperor/Standard/Standard/Planet Simulator). First thing I did was buy a Pathfinder and invest in a Shrine; same as I always do but now I don't have to remember to invest when I get some extra gold. I try to expand quickly with Carthage since 175g in early ancient is just worth more than 175g in late classical. City founding gold from subsequent cities went towards rushing shrines/monuments (later markets/monuments/shrines as I went God of Springtime), purchasing key tiles (particularly luxuries and sea resources), rushing additional buildings in my capital, and buying military units or workers if I need them (in this game, two archers to aid in barbarian control).

Essentially the early gold goes toward rushing faith and culture in my secondary cities so they can quickly get down to pumping out additional settlers for more faith/territory, and rushing buildings in my capital so it can build workers/military/wonders.

I'm currently sitting on 12 cities on turn 137; I've got room for two more quality sites but I've cut off peaceful access from my neighbors so planning to rush banking to settle with Pioneers. With the drop in early building investment costs Carthage actually feels stronger, though I have felt the changes to Progress. Specifically the drop in Science from capital births caused me to invest in Councils earlier than I used to; I feel the drop in culture from slower techs. The CS trade bonuses moved to Fealty has me actually sending some early trade routes to neighboring civs.

 

[Mad Madigan]

Just copying over some thoughts from the 1-8 Beta thread to a more appropriate location.

I don't think that Carthage is necessarily underperforming, but whenever I see Civs with passive unique bonuses and can think up simple to implement but interesting alternatives, I want to share them. Like the old Morocco UA that was recently changed to make Morocco fit more with its theme of piracy and make the Civ more fun to actively play, I think a few tweaks could be made to Carthage to make playing it more involved/interesting without necessarily "buffing" its power. Here are my thoughts (changes bold and italicized).

UA: "Phoenician Heritage: Cities produce 120 Gold when founded, scaling with Era. All owned coastal Cities receive a free Lighthouse. -10% Gold needed for purchases and purchased Units receive 100% of experience from buildings."

Notes - This change nerfs the free gold provided for each new city but lowers the cost of purchasing buildings and units. This combined with purchased units not receiving the 50% XP debuff added in the current (1-8 beta) plays up Carthage's notoriety for utilizing mercenaries rather than training and maintaining their own standing armies. This also allows Carthage's UA to play more of a role in the later game when settling cities is no longer a factor.


UU: Unchanged, save that Reconnaissance Promotion is retained upon upgrade.

Notes - This is a cool promotion and it's a shame that it is lost once the player makes the switch to Caravels and can now explore across Deep Oceans.


UB: Unchanged, save that bonus to Harbors changed to "Harbors receive an additional +1 Production on Sea Resources and +15% Production of Naval Units" (for a total of +2 Production on Sea Resources and +30% Production of Naval Units from Harbors) and bonus to Lighthouses changed to "When a Naval Unit is built in this City gain 20% of its Production as Culture"

Notes - This is an attempt to change the static yield bonuses that the Cothon provides to Harbors and Lighthouses into something that is more interactive and based on the history of the Civ. The actual % values can be further tweaked down if these are too good, but I based them on the bonuses that other standard buildings and Civ UBs already provide. For instance, the Lighthouse boost is a direct copy of the Siege Foundry unique boost, but replacing Science for Culture. The overall idea with these changes is to promote the idea that Carthage gets boosts for building ships, both in that their cothon drydocks would assist them in producing ships faster and their ship quality and naval prowess were well-known and praised (thus a culture boost for buildings ships rather than a static +2 Culture). And again, the Culture boost for building ships helps Carthage's unique abilities retain pertinence in the later eras of the game. The change to the Harbor's Production bonus also fits with the current changes to move yields from buildings to tiles. Finally, there would still be plenty of synergy between the UA and the UB (gain culture for building ships, but can purchase and/or build ships for slightly cheaper than other Civs).

 

[Blue Ghost]

@pineappledan would have a field day with those changes. We’ll have to rework the Topher for 4UC yet again if you steal that from us.

 

[Mad Madigan]

Sorry, I haven't really been following the development of the 4UC mod. Did I steal an idea y'all were working with?

 

[pineappledan]

@Blue Ghost, did you see the one where Elliot proposed Huns gain culture and gold every turn while they are razing a city?

At least I know my ideas don't come out of left field if they keep getting brought up independently. nothing new under the sun

 

[Blue Ghost]

Double XP on purchased units could work for Carthage, and would be simple enough for the player. I’d like to look at some other possible options that wouldn’t change Carthage’s playstyle as much. Unfortunately, almost any new proposed UAs would require new code, since there are very few UA options available in the DB.

The main issue with the UA right now is that it’s really front-loaded. It’s extremely powerful for early snowballing, but pretty blank once the city-settling phase is done. What if we changed the trigger for the gold gain to something more spread out? Maybe gain gold when a citizen is born, or a building is built? Those would still reward wide play, but wouldn’t load the entire bonus on the moment of founding.

 

[Mad Madigan]

Well, if you could code a trigger for gaining gold on building completion (including "free" or faith-bought buildings), then you could replace the gold gain on city founding. That way you'd still get a little gold when "founding" a city (due to the free lighthouse triggering this effect), but then also get gold for each additional building completed. This mirrors the effect from the Industry policy tree. Could that code be accessed via the UA so new code doesn't have to be written?

 

[Gazebo]

Carthage is fine.

G

 

[Mad Madigan]

It should also be destroyed, but where's the fun in that? Just because the AI is doing moderately well with Carthage doesn't mean it isn't also a little boring for human players (see: Morocco). Once you settle and expand in the first eras of the game, there isn't much "special" to Carthage other than the buffed yields on its Lighthouses and Harbors. If it's not too difficult to implement (aka no new code), why not try adjusting those boring flat yields to something more spicy?

 

[pineappledan]

I think we are missing something of a binding thesis here.

Current state:
Carthage is fine, fun even. Carthage is in a much better place than Morocco was a month ago, I think we can all agree on that. Their core mechanic and ethos has been gold, production, early snowballing and coasting through later eras base on rapid expansion and a bit of trade.

Current issue:
With the latest changes, Carthage's UW has suffered a marginalization, making the wonder, while still nice, a bit banal. The most noteworthy part of the building has now become how early it is, as opposed to any sort of large effect. That having been said, the Smithsonian is at least as white-bread; Assyria and Venice are making everyone look bad!

On the other hand, changes to purchasing power and gold scaling have increased the utility of Carthage's UA, especially in the earliest parts of the game. It is arguable that this buff more than makes up for any deficiencies of the UW, and compensates for the changes to Carthage's preferred policy tree: Progress.

The game has just gone through a major shakeup, making any discussion of what is right for Carthage, at best, premature.
perks to unit purchasing or trade routes seem like likely avenues for Carthage to go, if a change were desirable, but any proposed changes need to always keep Carthage's design ethos in mind: Early expansion, poor scaling.

rebuttals for current proposals:
gold on construction - I imagine this would take the place of gold on settle. This would not help Carthage establish their early lead because it would be a consistent boost throughout the game. It also doubles up on the industry opener
XP on units - as more and more XP buildings are built, this effect wold have a greater and greater impact. What was a 8XP gap in classical would be a 30XP gap in modern. It must also be kept in mind that such a bonus would incentivize unit purchasing, which is currently less effecient for gold/hammer conversion than building investment. Essentially, this trait would be encouraging players to play suboptimally.
Scaling numbers of trade routes - While I think this goes with the flavour of the civ quite well, the effects on tourism output, especially on larger maps where Carthage can settle many cities, would be very dangerous.
unique modifiers on buildings that aren't straight yield increases - Sounds like a pain in the ass to code for such a marginal "flavor booster", and is inconsistent with the other UWs in the game (America, Assyria, Venice). Any proposal like that would be more suitable as just a bonus on empire, or a bonus in the city with the Cothon

As I said, let's wait for the dust to settle.

 

[Ziad]

The main issue with the UA right now is that it’s really front-loaded. It’s extremely powerful for early snowballing, but pretty blank once the city-settling phase is done.

This is the issue.

 

[CrazyG]

Honestly, as of the current version I think Carthage is the strongest civ by a big amount (assuming your start has at least some water)

If your settler appears on forest you basically begin the game with a monument, a pathfinder, and a lighthouse. Its a very strong opening. I invested literally every single building I built until like the medieval era, and at that point I was still investing like 90% of them. Progress focused on infrastructure is much stronger than before, not weaker. You are basically guaranteed a religion (I think only Ethiopia has an easier path to religion than Carthage). Yes, I would put carthage ahead of Celts, Aztec, or India. Instant city connections and gold to invest make an enormous difference, I don't ever build shrine first in cities with Carthage but I still found first religion most of the time.

The resource diversity tripling gold value of trade routes used to be much better before, when you would target capitals or other cities with many resources. However now, you just target the farthest city (I really hate this change BTW). The investment mechanics make Carthage OP (but this mechanic is still changing). The hate on things like the relatively 1 fewer trade route aren't good feedback, first of all because the idea was made before anyone played the patch and if you play the most recent two patches Carthage is hilariously strong. The gold mechanics need to settle down, then we can look at a proper tuning of Carthage. I don't see how someone can play Dido on the current patch and justify a raw buff to the Great Cothon

 

[pineappledan]

This is the issue.

Is being a frontloaded civ actually an issue though?

This sounds more like Carthage espouses a playstyle you don't like, more than the Carthage actually needing to be changed

 

[Ziad]

Again the issue isn't that the gameplay is frontloaded, but that it's all concentrated in 1/4 of her unique traits.

Carthage is strong because of generic buffs to gameplay, not because of her own strengths. Her early game UA lets her build up and snowball but that's where it ends. Power should be spread throughout the kit, not just one part of it that doesn't even scale in utility after classical.

It's definitely a rush to play as Carthage, with the race for settlement fun and rewarding. After that you might as well play a trait-less civ.

Oh well. I doubt anything will get changed. I'll still enjoy playing her, but I'll just pass by her UB without noticing it's there, with trade routes more affected by the distance change than the resource diversity O.o

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Carthage's UB really could feel more unique than it does, and I am actually quite a fan of the "increases trade routes by number of cities owned" bit, but god that would be overpowered. Dido is already the snowballing pirate queen of doom, so adjustments to her power need to be done carefully.

Perhaps an instant EXP boost to all existing ships when it's completed for the first time? So then she would have her UU exploring, getting exp as usual, and then her UB pops and pushes them all into being deadly.

She could possibly have the UB give "ships gain exp from exploring" out as a promotion, ala the Heroic Epic, and then get her elephant unit back. But that feels like changing things to change them less than it feels like a fix.

She could be less front-loaded, I suppose, if new cities automatically built all available sea infrastructure for free rather than free lighthouses regardless of tech level. That would put huge incentives for her to stretch her legs into whatever is left in the industrial, especially since that tends to be sea-heavy settlement sites. Then the UB could add hitpoints to sea infrastructure.

The UB could cause ships to heal faster. That would be nice.

 

[Mad Madigan]

I'll reiterate that I agree Carthage is "fine", maybe even OP in human hands, but that there feels like so much missing potential. I was hoping others might be convinced that it would be much more interesting to play as Carthage if we were to A) weaken their UA but make it more relevant past the initial settlement explosion near the beginning of the game and B) make the Great Cothon into a more flavorful building that fits better with what it historically represents.

In regards to Carthage's UA, the free lighthouse is AMAZING when the player is able to settle numerous good coastal cities right from the start of the game, and then the free gold is added to sweeten the deal further and turn Dido into the snowball queen we all know and love(hate). But once you get your cities settled and you're in the middle/later parts of the game the only part of her UA that changes anything about how a human player might alter their grand strategies to win the game is that trade route resource diversity bonus, which, especially given how trade routes are now affected by route distance, is a very minor "unique" perk. In fact it's probably almost unnoticeable to most players since trade route distance modifiers have become such a big factor on which trade routes to take. I realize trade routes are a very "Carthage" thing historically, so maybe rather than give Carthage a flat % cost reduction to purchases they instead get a % reduction to purchase costs based on the number of active trade routes. Maybe something like "-1% Gold needed for purchase costs per active trade route". That way the % increases over the course of the game, but doesn't reach any more than 8-12% (depending on what wonders and policy trees you got).

In regards to the Great Cothon, I still think the flat yield bonuses to Harbors and Lighthouses could be changed to something more flavorful such as extra yields for ocean resources or Culture for building naval units.

 

[Workerspam]

CrazyG thoughts on Carthage mirror my own so I'll just toss a few things out their as food for thought.

One thing to keep in mind is many of these proposed changes push Carthage even more toward relying on a strong coastal start, which means they will be that much worse off when the start doesn't play into their favor.

Currently all Carthage cities get a free lighthouse, even inland cities. Which means every city gets that +2 culture bump at Great Cothon, making inland cities feel less punishing since you're already foregoing the free extra food on sea tiles and automatic city connection by not settling on the coast.

Regarding the flat yields to Lighthouse and Harbor: most unique buildings are half interesting effect/half flat yields. Great Cothon simply adds that flat yields portion to other buildings.

It's also true that Carthage doesn't feel all that different once you get past the mid-game. But that goes for many civs. Most have an era or two when their uniques make a noticeable impact but otherwise feel like a normal civ.

 

[Ziad]

Currently all Carthage cities get a free lighthouse, even inland cities. Which means every city gets that +2 culture bump at Great Cothon, making inland cities feel less punishing since you're already foregoing the free extra food on sea tiles and automatic city connection by not settling on the coast.
.

This is not true! Only coastal cities receive Lighthouses.

Regarding the flat yields to Lighthouse and Harbor: most unique buildings are half interesting effect/half flat yields. Great Cothon simply adds that flat yields portion to other buildings.

It's also true that Carthage doesn't feel all that different once you get past the mid-game. But that goes for many civs. Most have an era or two when their uniques make a noticeable impact but otherwise feel like a normal civ.

Every single civilization has a UA or a UB that has significant impact throughout the entire game, either through direct % effects or pop scalers. Others have UIs. Units naturally are generally era only but that makes sense. Many have promotions that are retained on promotion though, and those are just as impactful.

Just look at them and tell me if you find one that doesn't.

If a civ has a basic UB it's because they have a very interactive scaling UA. Arabia is a good example. Even then their UB at least provides a LOT of yields (faith and science) when most needed, and trade route distance too to mitigate the impacts of trade distance nerfs.

You know what UBs had boring static modifiers? Vanilla UBs.

The opposite is true. Polynesia has a relatively basic non-scaling UA (that lasts well into Renaissance mind you), but it makes up for it with a ridiculously powerful UI and a unit that retains its promotion.

Carthage's UB is just +1 trade route at this point and +2 culture with Lighthouses and ONLY on coastal cities. Production bonus is just an afterthought. This is the opposite of what you claim, as Carthage needs to have coastal cities for these bonuses.

So let's recap.

UA that doesn't scale well past Classical and is at half-strength if not coastal city.
Resource diversity bonus that is rendered weak by the trade route distance chan
UB that provides +1 TR and non-scaling bonuses to coastal cities only.
UU that doesn't retain promotion.

Yeah Carthage is not fine. It's strong but it's not fine. One-hit wonder snowball queen with no flavor past mid-Classical, and with only one viable strategy to get her there.

It was already a bit problematic before, but the recent trade route distance changes and buff to East India has diminished what little scaling they had. This needs to be addressed, unless people are willing to have a vanilla civ in VP.

----

I do agree that a lot of the suggestions are problematic or entirely too complex.

I like Max Madigan's suggestion.

Maybe something like "x% Gold needed for purchase costs per active trade route". That way the % increases over the course of the game
.

Seems simple enough to put on a one city UB while retaining some flavor. Feel free to delete some gold off the UA, production off harbors, and the resource diversity if necessary. Nobody will notice.

Would also drive something to look forward to (oooh more trade routes!) and a level of decision making beyond "settle on coast or not". In fact it might make non-coastal cities more valuable.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Since the resource diversity from trade routes bonus is so low-impact as to be irrelevant, it makes sense to remove it and replace it with something else that noticeably improves gameplay. The suggestions given are good. Agreed with @Ziad, this is an issue of good gameplay, not power level.

 

[pineappledan]

Carthage's UB really could feel more unique than it does, and I am actually quite a fan of the "increases trade routes by number of cities owned" bit, but god that would be overpowered. Dido is already the snowballing pirate queen of doom, so adjustments to her power need to be done carefully.

I've had time to sleep on it, and with Mad Madigan's suggestion:

"-1% Gold needed for purchase costs per active trade route".

these two combined sound like my favorite idea right now

Carthage UA: Phoenecian Heritage

• Cities produce 150 Gold when founded. Bonus scales with Era.
• All owned coastal Cities receive a free Lighthouse.
• Purchasing units and buildings with Gold is 1% cheaper for every active Trade Route

Carthage UW: The Great Cothon

replaces East India Company.
+5 Gold for outgoing Trade Routes, +3 Gold for incoming Trade Routes, and all Harbors gain +2 Production and all Lighthouses gain +2 Culture.
Receive a free copy of all Luxury Resources around the City.
Reduces Poverty.
Available earlier.
Grants one additional Trade Routes, and 1 Trade route for every 5 cities owned by Carthage.

+1 TR for every X cities, I'm unsure what the number should be, but I think 4-6 is the sweet spot

So that is the same base number of trade routes as everyone else, but you get it 2 techs earlier, and 1 trade route for every 4 cities. So in addition to the immediate gold on settling, every 4th city you settle also increases your trade cap. One immediate bonus, one long term bonus.
and then, in addition to the extra trade route that you get (and who doesn't want trade routes), every 4th city also decreases your gold purchasing cost slightly. They all form a positive feedback loop, ecouraging wide city spam and conquest for more trade

Now on a standard map, you're likely to have maybe 6 cities by end of Classical, correct? so the Cothon is giving 2 trade routes. You can theory-craft ways of getting absurd numbers of trade routes, but in order to match Venice, who gets at least 20 trade routes, and can have as many as 38 (colossus, petra, Exchange Markets, (2) Protectionism, (2) corporation, (2) Economic Union). It would take 40 cities to even match Venice, so unless you're dicking around, there isn't any reasonable expectation that you could match Venice in any era. By late game, the Cothon would realistically be giving 4 to 6 extra trade routes, including the base +1. That's a great bonus, but it's not completely absurd.

This also makes Carthage one of the most warmonger-y trade-oriented civs, because it's ALWAYS hungry for cities. It would also mean that other warmongers can hurt Carthage even more than other civs they pick on, because conquering/razing their cities ALSO eats at their trade cap.

And yeah, none of this is likely to happen. I do this mostly because the theorycrafting is fun for me, but I think that would address people's issues with Carthage's lack of flavour-boosters in late eras.