Carthage

[Stangle Khan]

Not necessarily, I mean the Indian UB adds +1 food on all farms (and +1 production on all floodplains). I'm not necessarily comparing farms to water-tiles, but I don't think the idea is that absurd.
Comparing for example a harbor with +1 culture on all water-tiles to the Songhai Tabya, which provides +1 culture on all river-tiles, on average the harbor is going to outperform it, but considering one is in ancient era building and the other is a Medieval era one I don't necessarily see that as that much of a problem. Especially considering culture is a lot more valuable early on.


That being said I'm not married to the idea or anything, so I'm totally open for better suggestions.

That's definitely true and it would give them even more impetus to settle on the coast. Also makes their UB much more useful long term whereas a bit of food or gold wouldn't.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Do people really think that Carthage should be nerfed to be better? I really think they are one of the best civs in the game. The most important part is the money you get which is huge. I can speed up monument and buy a scout from the start or worker if that is what I need. I think the lighthouse is also great you will never have the money problems which you would have with almost every other civ before you research trade. In my latest deity game I had +10 gold very early on. I would have fallen way behind if not for my economy.

The great cothon is also awesome combined with the 300 gold harbor event. And because of Carthage you'll always have the money for those harbors. And the two extra trade routes with Carthages bonuses usually means like 40 extra gold per turn at the time you get them.

Also after you get to embark you usually have tons of great islands to settle because AIs usually settle their own continent before they settle the near by islands. You can go super wide and settle all the islands before AI goes after them.

Ofcourse Pangea limits the possibilities but you can still settle along the coasts and I have never played a game with Carthage that I haven't started on the coast and I have even managed a win on immortal Pangea.

And ofcourse the UU which lets you dominate the seas until the medieval era with all those promotions.

All in all Carthage is my go to civ an I think it gets a bit underrated around here so I wanted to give my 2 cents.

 

[Funak]

Do people really think that Carthage should be nerfed to be better? I really think they are one of the best civs in the game. The most important part is the money you get which is huge. I can speed up monument and buy a scout from the start or worker if that is what I need. I think the lighthouse is also great you will never have the money problems which you would have with almost every other civ before you research trade. In my latest deity game I had +10 gold very early on. I would have fallen way behind if not for my economy.

The great cothon is also awesome combined with the 300 gold harbor event. And because of Carthage you'll always have the money for those harbors. And the two extra trade routes with Carthages bonuses usually means like 40 extra gold per turn at the time you get them.

Also after you get to embark you usually have tons of great islands to settle because AIs usually settle their own continent before they settle the near by islands. You can go super wide and settle all the islands before AI goes after them.

Ofcourse Pangea limits the possibilities but you can still settle along the coasts and I have never played a game with Carthage that I haven't started on the coast and I have even managed a win on immortal Pangea.

And ofcourse the UU which lets you dominate the seas until the medieval era with all those promotions.

All in all Carthage is my go to civ an I think it gets a bit underrated around here so I wanted to give my 2 cents.

Worth noting is when that discussion took place, Carthage had just been severely maimed, losing both part of the gold from settling and a lot of use out of the Cothon, these things have both changed since then.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Worth noting is when that discussion took place, Carthage had just been severely maimed, losing both part of the gold from settling and a lot of use out of the Cothon, these things have both changed since then.

Ok. I didn't play Carthage at that point. So do you or others rank Carthage as a top tier civ like me as of now? I know they are somewhat situational but so are most civs and almost all maps have seas and that is all Carthage needs. So besides Great Plains Dido rocks.

 

[Funak]

Ok. I didn't play Carthage at that point. So do you or others rank Carthage as a top tier civ like me as of now?

Not really, she is map-dependent, her unique unit is fairly garbage and the AI always does poorly with her. If I was in the business of ranking civs, which I'm not, I would definitely not rank her as top.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Not really, she is map-dependent, her unique unit is fairly garbage and the AI always does poorly with her. If I was in the business of ranking civs, which I'm not, I would definitely not rank her as top.

I guess we agree to disagree then. I played Dido on continents, small continents, pangea and so on and I don't ever remember having a "bad" game with her. That super fast start you get with her is so good. And their UU which may not be among the best is far from garbage. That 16 CS compared to Triremes 12 (?) and the ability to get promotions easier is great mostly because how long it takes to get anything better in the seas. I agree that AI doesn't get most out of Carthage but for human players I think they are near the top.

 

[jacktannery]

I also think Carthage was one of the most powerful civs in the game (so long as you have a good bit of ocean) and that the recent nerf was needed.

 

[Forsti]

I also think Carthage was one of the most powerful civs in the game (so long as you have a good bit of ocean) and that the recent nerf was needed.

I also agree that they are a powerful civ. However, I don't think that they deserve(d) a nerf, since there are civs that are even better than Carthage. The most obvious examples are Poland and Ethiopia. Poland's ability to gain free policies is godly, as most of the time lack of policies is what restricts you from building wonders. Their UU and UB are also anything but bad. Ethiopia on the other hand has an amazing UB that assures you a religion and leads you into an early culture lead assuring you the early wonders you want. What the Stele does is the definition of snowball. The UA is solid, although less impressive than that of Poland and the UU seems to be quite excellent, although I have never been able to use it, since I've always either won the game or lost interest in it before unlocking the appropriate tech. There is little point in nerfing Carthage while there are better civs around. Obviously a nerf didn't make the civ unplayable by any means, as even after that they were probably in the top half of all civs. I'm just saying there are civs that are more powerful than Carthage.

 

[thecraftybee]

I've recently randomed Carthage twice and these were the first times I've played them on CBP.
I feel that the Civ is quite strong as the early gold to buy a Worker helps a lot. The amount of gold you can get from Trade Routes is amazing and overall I felt overwhelmed with gold. When Carthage has been in my other games too I recall them being very rich so the AI seems to know how to maximise its gold advantages.

My only complaint about them is that they felt very passive and a bit boring. I'm generally not a warmonger but built some of the Quinqueremes but never really used them until later in the game once they had been upgraded. The instant city connections on coastal cities felt good and the gold felt good, but my games felt like I was playing with a blank Civilization but on a lower difficulty setting. The game was easier but less fun. The Cothon is great, but you only get to build it once, the UA only comes into effect once you settle a city which happens too rarely in my opinion, even though I settled 9 cities including two with Pioneers.

I've recently played my first game of CBP Denmark and it was amazing fun. The UB was brilliant and each kill I would get constant reminders that I was Denmark. Their UU was also good as it let me plan ahead to do a timing push against a neighbour.

I would probably feel different if I had done some early naval war with the Quinquereme, but overall I though this Civ was a bit of a let down in the fun department. Powerful, but a bit vanilla. This is one strong Civ that I feel would really benefit from a CBP affiliated 3UC/4UC-like-mod to boost the fun factor.

 

[Stangle Khan]

I've recently randomed Carthage twice and these were the first times I've played them on CBP.
I feel that the Civ is quite strong as the early gold to buy a Worker helps a lot. The amount of gold you can get from Trade Routes is amazing and overall I felt overwhelmed with gold. When Carthage has been in my other games too I recall them being very rich so the AI seems to know how to maximise its gold advantages.

My only complaint about them is that they felt very passive and a bit boring. I'm generally not a warmonger but built some of the Quinqueremes but never really used them until later in the game once they had been upgraded. The instant city connections on coastal cities felt good and the gold felt good, but my games felt like I was playing with a blank Civilization but on a lower difficulty setting. The game was easier but less fun. The Cothon is great, but you only get to build it once, the UA only comes into effect once you settle a city which happens too rarely in my opinion, even though I settled 9 cities including two with Pioneers.

I've recently played my first game of CBP Denmark and it was amazing fun. The UB was brilliant and each kill I would get constant reminders that I was Denmark. Their UU was also good as it let me plan ahead to do a timing push against a neighbour.

I would probably feel different if I had done some early naval war with the Quinquereme, but overall I though this Civ was a bit of a let down in the fun department. Powerful, but a bit vanilla. This is one strong Civ that I feel would really benefit from a CBP affiliated 3UC/4UC-like-mod to boost the fun factor.

I think the only thing that made Carthage fun got ruined when they moved the city connections via water to lighthouses. Carthage's big advantage was the ability to settle cities that were further away or on islands and not suffer the isolation penalty and being the only civ that could do that (other than Indonesia but they didn't get the bonuses for city connections) for the first 3 eras. That advantage was nerfed to 1 era. This was better for the game overall but it majorly screwed Carthage over.

They were at best middle of the line in terms of strength (solid but not fantastic) before that change but now it's kind of confusing why I would even bother when all that separates Carthage from other civs is a lighthouse. The Quinquireme is a good unit, but nothing to write home about. And the UB is again okay but by the time it comes into play that 2 culture per lighthouse is not a big difference and the +3 production per harbor is essentially unnoticeable.

So it's a civ with a decent UU, a once good ability that is now mediocre and a UB that makes almost no difference to the game.

 

[Gazebo]

I think the only thing that made Carthage fun got ruined when they moved the city connections via water to lighthouses. Carthage's big advantage was the ability to settle cities that were further away or on islands and not suffer the isolation penalty and being the only civ that could do that (other than Indonesia but they didn't get the bonuses for city connections) for the first 3 eras. That advantage was nerfed to 1 era. This was better for the game overall but it majorly screwed Carthage over.

They were at best middle of the line in terms of strength (solid but not fantastic) before that change but now it's kind of confusing why I would even bother when all that separates Carthage from other civs is a lighthouse. The Quinquireme is a good unit, but nothing to write home about. And the UB is again okay but by the time it comes into play that 2 culture per lighthouse is not a big difference and the +3 production per harbor is essentially unnoticeable.

So it's a civ with a decent UU, a once good ability that is now mediocre and a UB that makes almost no difference to the game.

I don't think that's fair at all. Just as the lighthouse element of the UA is starting to fall off in utility, the other half - resource diversity - kicks in. Carthage gets to buy its victory. If that's not your thing, then you probably just like military civs more (which is fine).

G

 

[Funak]

Think this is a lot more about the qunquereme being underwhelming, both the other parts of Carthage are fairly interesting.

 

[Gazebo]

Think this is a lot more about the qunquereme being underwhelming, both the other parts of Carthage are fairly interesting.

Perhaps. Most ancient-era UUs are underwhelming, in that there is so much going on during the period that a UU feels a little wasted (production-priority-wise). Nevertheless, the QQ can wreck face if used properly.

G

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Perhaps. Most ancient-era UUs are underwhelming, in that there is so much going on during the period that a UU feels a little wasted (production-priority-wise). Nevertheless, the QQ can wreck face if used properly.

G

I think the UU is fine. You can control the seas with them for very long. You can't get anything better until medieval times. That 16 combat strength can absolutely destroy other civs trireme and dromon fleets. And the easy way to get promotions is just gravy on top of that.

 

[Funak]

Perhaps. Most ancient-era UUs are underwhelming, in that there is so much going on during the period that a UU feels a little wasted (production-priority-wise). Nevertheless, the QQ can wreck face if used properly.

I think the UU is fine. You can control the seas with them for very long. You can't get anything better until medieval times. That 16 combat strength can absolutely destroy other civs trireme and dromon fleets. And the easy way to get promotions is just gravy on top of that.

First of all, it just has 15 CS

Second, I don't think I explained myself well enough. The problem with the Quinquereme isn't that the unit itself is weak, it is that the unit isn't focused towards any specific purpose, which makes it stretched thin and not good enough to rely on for anything.

It has extra combat-strength and reconnaissance meaning it is neither an explorer nor a early-game fighting-force. First of all I have to say, after trying the quinquereme out a few times in the current patch, that the reconnaissance promotion is completely pointless on a ship that can't travel ocean-tiles. In all of my game I had a single quinquereme scouting out the entire coast where I could travel, from the ice-blockade in the north to the other neighbor cultural borders to the south, and that ship never got passed the second promotion. In fact even the time when I didn't have a neighbor to the south and the ship explored from ice to ice I never got to the third promotion. Rememeber that this is only 1 ship we're talking about, if we had a unique units which's unique ability was that the first one of its type you build started with an extra 35 experience, no one would bother defending it.

 

[Stangle Khan]

I don't think that's fair at all. Just as the lighthouse element of the UA is starting to fall off in utility, the other half - resource diversity - kicks in. Carthage gets to buy its victory. If that's not your thing, then you probably just like military civs more (which is fine).

G

I love buying my way to victory, Carthage just doesn't have a big enough advantage in terms of gold to be worth playing for that. I've easily racked up a few hundred GPT as any civ by mid game. Carthage gets me what, 2 extra trade routes and a slight bonus to gold from them as compared to other civs?

If I build the Colussus I'm halfway there to Carthage's UB. Add Petra to the mix and I all but have it.

Compare that to the other trade route based civs (The Ottomans, Portugal, Morocco, Germany and Venice but they don't really count) and the benefits are absolutely minuscule.

And the Quinquereme is more or less fine IMO. The XP from exploration is really useful in getting an early fleet you can fight with. It also stays useful a lot longer than most civs UU considering the next melee ship is the Caravel.

Carthage just always had this early game advantage to compensate for their relatively weak UB and now that's basically gone.

 

[Gazebo]

I think the UU is fine. You can control the seas with them for very long. You can't get anything better until medieval times. That 16 combat strength can absolutely destroy other civs trireme and dromon fleets. And the easy way to get promotions is just gravy on top of that.

Oh I agree, I was just noting that ancient era uniques are generally a bit weaker than later-game counterparts.

I love buying my way to victory, Carthage just doesn't have a big enough advantage in terms of gold to be worth playing for that. I've easily racked up a few hundred GPT as any civ by mid game. Carthage gets me what, 2 extra trade routes and a slight bonus to gold from them as compared to other civs?

If I build the Colussus I'm halfway there to Carthage's UB. Add Petra to the mix and I all but have it.

Compare that to the other trade route based civs (The Ottomans, Portugal, Morocco, Germany and Venice but they don't really count) and the benefits are absolutely minuscule.

And the Quinquereme is more or less fine IMO. The XP from exploration is really useful in getting an early fleet you can fight with. It also stays useful a lot longer than most civs UU considering the next melee ship is the Caravel.

Carthage just always had this early game advantage to compensate for their relatively weak UB and now that's basically gone.

Yes, but if you get Colossus and Petra as Carthage, you rival Venice for TR #s. Furthermore, no one gets bonus gold from resource diversity, which makes a huge impact throughout the game for your TR value. Don't discount it.

Carthage AI still does really, really well.

G

 

[Magil]

Carthage just always had this early game advantage to compensate for their relatively weak UB and now that's basically gone.

Free lighthouse and bonus gold on founding is pretty great early game, gets your development off to a lightning start. Carthage loves maps like large islands or archipelago.

 

[Funak]

Yes, but if you get Colossus and Petra as Carthage, you rival Venice for TR

If you get Petra and Colossus as Venice you have no rival, no man can be your equal.

 

[isau]

I really enjoyed playing Carthage in this mod. It's a very different playstyle, great for a rapid expansion strategy. One of their biggest advantages is being able to make a landgrab for all the good spots early in the game and monopolize the resources. Effective because you can buy a Worker on Turn 1 and as you expand you can purchase military to protect your assets.

Altho they can be played peacefully, don't forget how much utility there is in going warmonger. That's how I plan to play them in my next game. At 200 gold earned per city capture I think I can actually come out ahead on units by purchasing new units to replace the fallen ones. Part of it will come down to luck, no doubt, but that's true of any warmonger game.

Anyway, don't assume just because coastal cities get a Lighthouse for free that you should stick strictly to the coast. 200 gold per city is basically the same as 800 gold free by turn 70-ish if you assume a standard (for me) rate of expansion. That in turn can be snowballed (e.g. by purchasing military who then race out and kill barbarian camps for even more gold.)

And don't forget if you're ever in need for a quick influx of cash, Carthage can literally "gold bomb" itself and plant a city! Heck if happiness is an issue you can even plant the city somewhere useless and then sell it to an ally for even more gold.