Carthage

[PurpleMentat]

In a short test game today, I ran into an interesting side-effect of the new Naval promotions and Carthage. I found an isolated city-state I wasn't going to want, picking up a level or two of Coastal Raider along the way, and declared war. The initial battering of ship against city gave me quite a bit of money and let me unlock Supply. I moved out of range, healed up, and went back in.

I kept this up from turn 50 to turn 176 of an Epic game. It basically added around 20 gold per turn to my economy, and provided me with an armada of 5 Quins that had Supply, Medic 2, City Raider 3, and 2 Dromons that had Targeting 3, Range, and Logistics.

Without Medic, it would not have been possible. The extra healing (30 a turn, in neutral waters!) let me run in, smack the city once, get shot at by city and archers, duck out, and repeat in two or three turns. With every boat. City states have high enough combat strength that it was never captured. Without the 17 strength of Quinqueremes, I wouldn't have been able to survive getting Supply, do enough damage to make real money, or live through the early Medieval turns when the CS had Composite Bowman and was at Strength 24.

I'm not sure if anything needs changing here. It's a pretty unique edge-case of adding Medic when one civ has a really strong early game boat. Just wanted to bring the topic up, for the more experience to theorycraft and test.

 

[Funak]

In a short test game today, I ran into an interesting side-effect of the new Naval promotions and Carthage. I found an isolated city-state I wasn't going to want, picking up a level or two of Coastal Raider along the way, and declared war. The initial battering of ship against city gave me quite a bit of money and let me unlock Supply. I moved out of range, healed up, and went back in.

I kept this up from turn 50 to turn 176 of an Epic game. It basically added around 20 gold per turn to my economy, and provided me with an armada of 5 Quins that had Supply, Medic 2, City Raider 3, and 2 Dromons that had Targeting 3, Range, and Logistics.

Without Medic, it would not have been possible. The extra healing (30 a turn, in neutral waters!) let me run in, smack the city once, get shot at by city and archers, duck out, and repeat in two or three turns. With every boat. City states have high enough combat strength that it was never captured.

I'm not sure if anything needs changing here. Just wanted to bring the topic up, for the more experience to theorycraft and test.

Farming experience on city-states have always been a problem. Most people consider it cheesy and just won't do it.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Farming experience on city-states have always been a problem. Most people consider it cheesy and just won't do it.

That's an odd approach in this community. The response to seeing an AI accidentally end their warrior and settler in two different hexes is a resounding "STEAL THAT SETTLER!" even though it's clearly a minor bug in movement AI and kind of cheesy. We fight off larger, more powerful AI armies by exploiting AI weaknesses, and eventually snowball harder than they can the same way. Running into an area of "that's cheesy, we just don't do it" is really jarring.

Anyway, beyond the experience, it was the Quinquereme that really did it. Even without Medic, you can have City Raider 2 before attacking, and get to Supply before you have to run the first time. Now I'm farming 30 gold an attack, with multiple ships. The only reason I can't do it to a normal civ is their cities are too weak! I'll accidentally capture it and get Warmonger penalty. I suppose, if 'don't pick on city-states' is the norm, I should try it on an enemy Capital. Punch it for cash, duck back out to heal, repeat. Capital should be strong enough to not accidentally capture.

 

[Deadstarre]

you might be able to buff up your land army on a city state, but generating that kind of gold yield per turn from farming a city state takes it to another level. In normal situations the gold bonus from coastal raiding is somewhat negligible- it almost seems fine tuned for explicit farming purposes which, as he pointed out, without medic would be much less feasible. not saying medic needs to go, i dont have enough experience in naval yet, but if it stays it sounds like the gold probably should go.

 

[Funak]

That's an odd approach in this community. The response to seeing an AI accidentally end their warrior and settler in two different hexes is a resounding "STEAL THAT SETTLER!" even though it's clearly a minor bug in movement AI and kind of cheesy. We fight off larger, more powerful AI armies by exploiting AI weaknesses, and eventually snowball harder than they can the same way. Running into an area of "that's cheesy, we just don't do it" is really jarring.

Anyway, beyond the experience, it was the Quinquereme that really did it. Even without Medic, you can have City Raider 2 before attacking, and get to Supply before you have to run the first time. Now I'm farming 30 gold an attack, with multiple ships. The only reason I can't do it to a normal civ is their cities are too weak! I'll accidentally capture it and get Warmonger penalty. I suppose, if 'don't pick on city-states' is the norm, I should try it on an enemy Capital. Punch it for cash, duck back out to heal, repeat. Capital should be strong enough to not accidentally capture.

I'm not saying that this should be left in. I'm saying the AI won't abuse it, so as long as you don't abuse it there is no problem.
If there is a way to fix this, then sure, fix it. But there really isn't an easy way to fix then then I'm saying it is fine, because you can just choose not to exploit it.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm not saying that this should be left in. I'm saying the AI won't abuse it, so as long as you don't abuse it there is no problem.
If there is a way to fix this, then sure, fix it. But there really isn't an easy way to fix then then I'm saying it is fine, because you can just choose not to exploit it.

Best we could do would be to limit CS xp like barb xp.

G

 

[Deadstarre]

Best we could do would be to limit CS xp like barb xp.

G

im not in the habit of warring with CS but i dont think limiting their xp like barbs would feel right. for the times when you do get invaded by one, or are invading one- its quite more challenge than clearing a barb camp

 

[Gazebo]

im not in the habit of warring with CS but i dont think limiting their xp like barbs would feel right. for the times when you do get invaded by one, or are invading one- its quite more challenge than clearing a barb camp

I'm not saying we should, I'm just saying that there's not really an easy way to fix this exploit, if it is an exploit at all. I guess we could add a diplo modifier when you kill/attack a CS that someone is protected by (more than exists currently), but that's it.

 

[Deadstarre]

I'm not saying we should, I'm just saying that there's not really an easy way to fix this exploit, if it is an exploit at all. I guess we could add a diplo modifier when you kill/attack a CS that someone is protected by (more than exists currently), but that's it.

the gold steal aspect off the melee ships was the only thing that seemed overly wrong to me about the scenario

 

[Funak]

the gold steal aspect off the melee ships was the only thing that seemed overly wrong to me about the scenario

You think getting 22 gpt is worse than the ability to level your ships to level 8? I don't think so anyways.

 

[Deadstarre]

You think getting 22 gpt is worse than the ability to level your ships to level 8? I don't think so anyways.

no its just that the ability to get deep promotions on military units is always an option- you can find a weak civ to pummel just as easily. i just dont think doing it should directly benefit your economy that much as well. caravans dont come around to plunder often enough to equal that much

speaking of- if he stayed in war with a CS for 100+ turns... where is the war weariness mechanic?

 

[Gazebo]

no its just that the ability to get deep promotions on military units is always an option- you can find a weak civ to pummel just as easily. i just dont think doing it should directly benefit your economy that much as well. caravans dont come around to plunder often enough to equal that much

speaking of- if he stayed in war with a CS for 100+ turns... where is the war weariness mechanic?

War weariness is tied to ideologies. Also major civs.
G

 

[Deadstarre]

War weariness is tied to ideologies. Also major civs.
G

i see now only unlocks after ideology. the first time i saw the mechanic i didnt know that, i just remember thinking it was a good idea if someone was in a war for some exceptional length of time it was good to make them pay for that, particularly when peace is an option. im curious- why was it only implemented post-ideology?

 

[Gazebo]

i see now only unlocks after ideology. the first time i saw the mechanic i didnt know that, i just remember thinking it was a good idea if someone was in a war for some exceptional length of time it was good to make them pay for that, particularly when peace is an option. im curious- why was it only implemented post-ideology?

Because there are enough sources of early unhappiness, and the idea of war causing civil unrest is a fairly 'modern' concept, at least how it plays into civ's model of history.

G

 

[PurpleMentat]

i see now only unlocks after ideology. the first time i saw the mechanic i didnt know that, i just remember thinking it was a good idea if someone was in a war for some exceptional length of time it was good to make them pay for that, particularly when peace is an option. im curious- why was it only implemented post-ideology?

Conceptually, it's meant to mirror the feeling of the Cold War. Mechanically, it stops the AI from being permanently at war with the MASSIVE diplomatic penalty that comes from differing ideologies, and might cause civs and cities to flip with the extra unhappiness.

Also, war was not something that cause society-wide unrest before the mid 1900s in the Western European world. It was a fact of life, and tended to raise morale or get ignored.

 

[Stangle Khan]

I tried playing with Carthage and it's quite weak compared to other Civs.

The UA is essentially nothing after the early game. The free harbor becomes obsolete once you research Compass and Banking since anyone with a pioneer will get a free harbor. The gold basically is nice but not overly useful considering how easy it is to get an empire that churns out gold like mad.

The UB is probably the worst out of all the civs. At most it nets you 40ish gold per turn (which is nice but compared to other gold-heavy civs is not that strong) over the East India Company. The extra trade-routes are nice for spreading religion or tourism but that's about it.

The UU is excellent on the other hand. It's earlier and stronger than a trireme and the reconnaissance promotion is great for exploring the seas so that Carthage has people to trade with.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I found them to be really enjoyable up until the Renaissance. Then they kind of peter out. I would like to see a more persistently relevant UB.

 

[PurpleMentat]

If they are going to get more staying power from their uniques, they'll need to have a toned down start. That start is borderline OP as it is, especially if you rush Sailing. Two Quinqueremes can take an enemy Capital in a couple turns, easy.

 

[Llednar Twem]

If you think Carthage has a strong start now, you should have seen it back when E&D was more directly supported. Carthage's UD gave two of the best melee ship currently available, a great admiral, and a settler all for just 1000 gold. It could be done once per era too, not just once per game like most UDs. It basically fit perfectly with the free gold on city founding to allow Carthage to crush any coastal neighbor with ease. E&D isn't linked in the main download thread anymore, and a few posts I've seen have implied it's no longer compatible, which is a pretty heavy loss for Carthage.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Yeah, E&D is pretty nuts and not at all balanced with CBP in general these days. Some of the decisions available are just insane, and some of them are completely lame. I don't think E&D is still in active development, and I'm fairly certain most mods are moving away from supporting it.