Carthage

In my epic quest to eliminate all free UA buildings I'm going to propose a new UA for Carthage, one that really doesn't make much of a difference at all but since I like consistency I'm going to through with this anyways.


Phoenician Heritage:
Costal and ocean tiles can create city connections.
Cities produce a large sum of gold when founded.
Ocean resources are visible from the start of the game and founding/conquering a city instantly gives you control of and improves all ocean resources within workable range.



The idea was o just keep the harbor city-connections while giving some extra bonuses as a compensation for losing out on the cargo-ship bonuses and gold. This UA is probably going to snowball slightly harder (because of the free fishingboats) but eventually fall off like the old Carthaginian UA.
 
Seems like a reasonable trade. I'm not sure if G will find it worth his time though.
 
In my epic quest to eliminate all free UA buildings I'm going to propose a new UA for Carthage, one that really doesn't make much of a difference at all but since I like consistency I'm going to through with this anyways.


Phoenician Heritage:
Costal and ocean tiles can create city connections.
Cities produce a large sum of gold when founded.
Ocean resources are visible from the start of the game and founding/conquering a city instantly gives you control of and improves all ocean resources within workable range.



The idea was o just keep the harbor city-connections while giving some extra bonuses as a compensation for losing out on the cargo-ship bonuses and gold. This UA is probably going to snowball slightly harder (because of the free fishingboats) but eventually fall off like the old Carthaginian UA.

I don't mind that at all, pretty reasonable based on my limited knowledge of the current civ standings at the moment.
What though do you mean by:
Costal(sic) and ocean tiles can create city connections.
Are you suggesting they do but only after specific techs or buildings or they will from the founding?
 
I don't mind that at all, pretty reasonable based on my limited knowledge of the current civ standings at the moment.
What though do you mean by:

Are you suggesting they do but only after specific techs or buildings or they will from the founding?
I did mean from the start, but it could be tied to the wheel I guess, I don't remember if city-connections work before the wheel at all actually. If the wording is weird I kinda just copied the wording on the Songhai UA.
 
I don't see a need for the change. The UA would require a lot of cityconnection reworks solely to accomplish what the harbor already does. There's absolutely nothing wrong with UAs including buildings, especially when said buildings are iconic of said civ (Carthage and harbors, Egypt and stone working, the Ottomans and caravanserai, etc.).

G
 
I don't see a need for the change. The UA would require a lot of cityconnection reworks solely to accomplish what the harbor already does. There's absolutely nothing wrong with UAs including buildings, especially when said buildings are iconic of said civ (Carthage and harbors, Egypt and stone working, the Ottomans and caravanserai, etc.).

The Stone works and Caravansaries create real problems by buffing some luxuries. Honestly speaking early snowballing is really dangerous and is not something you should stride for, especially not when it is RNG and terrainbased.
The harbors are mostly because of consistency and because people have been complaining about Carthage starting with late medieval era buildings in their ancient era cities. People have also complained about the free harbors being useless because Pioneers already start with harbors.

I'm the voice of the people, and also myself, mostly myself.
 
The Stone works and Caravansaries create real problems by buffing some luxuries. Honestly speaking early snowballing is really dangerous and is not something you should stride for, especially not when it is RNG and terrainbased.
The harbors are mostly because of consistency and because people have been complaining about Carthage starting with late medieval era buildings in their ancient era cities. People have also complained about the free harbors being useless because Pioneers already start with harbors.

I'm the voice of the people, and also myself, mostly myself.

Getting rid of harbors and giving them instant UA connections doesn't change the pioneer's bonus. Really, an easier fix would be to take away the Pioneer's free harbor (keeping it on the colonist only). Overall, I just disagree with your claim that the buildings cause snowball. Any UA can snowball in the right position.

G
 
The Stone works and Caravansaries create real problems by buffing some luxuries. Honestly speaking early snowballing is really dangerous and is not something you should stride for, especially not when it is RNG and terrainbased.
The harbors are mostly because of consistency and because people have been complaining about Carthage starting with late medieval era buildings in their ancient era cities. People have also complained about the free harbors being useless because Pioneers already start with harbors.

I'm the voice of the people, and also myself, mostly myself.

well you are turning carthage into rng and terrain based, they need sea luxuries and fish nearby early to get the most benefit (kinda alike japan).
 
Getting rid of harbors and giving them instant UA connections doesn't change the pioneer's bonus. Really, an easier fix would be to take away the Pioneer's free harbor (keeping it on the colonist only).
No but the secondary effect of the UA, the autoconnected sea-resources would still work.
I don't think removing the harbor from the pioneer would solve anything, it would just make island-settling even more of a hassle than it already is.



Overall, I just disagree with your claim that the buildings cause snowball. Any UA can snowball in the right position.
The Egyptian UA is crazy powerful and crazy irregular, now with the base production of the building removed the UA varies between providing you with 0 production or upwards 10 in your first city. Getting a start with multiple stone-works resources pretty much guarantees you any wonder you point at as well as cutting settler-production time in half. It is just not an acceptable difference.
The only reason the Ottoman UA doesn't feel as broken is because the caravansary boosted worse luxuries with worse yields, now that this is no longer the case. The Ottoman UA is going to be just as bizarre as the Egyptian UA, possibly even more so because of how much later the Caravansary becomes available.


Honestly I'm not even sure why you're defending the free buildings, as a developer they must be driving you crazy. I mean even without the balance-issues free buildings just feel extreme lazy, boring and unimaginative, doesn't it?



well you are turning carthage into rng and terrain based, they need sea luxuries and fish nearby early to get the most benefit (kinda alike japan).
They are already terrain-based, harbors only work in coastal cities. But I guess you're right about the RNG of the sea-resources, I just remembered someone talking about it earlier and it sounded like a fun idea.

You could also just let them grab and improve all luxuries (not bonus, not strategic) within range instead, that would make the civ less terrain-dependent as all starts have luxuries of some sort. This is however a bigger buff and would probably require some compensation some place else (or maybe not, Carthage aren't exactly fantastic).
 
Honestly I'm not even sure why you're defending the free buildings, as a developer they must be driving you crazy. I mean even without the balance-issues free buildings just feel extreme lazy, boring and unimaginative, doesn't it?

Woah. Why would I see a function that I completely rewrote in the DLL as lazy? I don't see anything I do on the project as lazy. I think saying I should redesign an entire UA using unique functions, but not actually being capable of doing any of that work, and then telling the developer he/she is lazy when they don't like it, is lazy. That's what I think.

G
 
Woah. Why would I see a function that I completely rewrote in the DLL as lazy? I don't see anything I do on the project as lazy. I think saying I should redesign an entire UA using unique functions, but not actually being capable of doing any of that work, and then telling the developer he/she is lazy when they don't like it, is lazy. That's what I think.

I've never called you lazy, I was asking you a question; if you don't feel that giving away free buildings instead of coming up with a unique ability feels like lazy. I also never said that you SHOULD do anything, I was giving a suggestion. However considering how much harder you made the non-building thing out to be, it kinda answers the question.

In the matter of Ottomans and Egypt the free building is a serious balance issue, in the case of Carthage is just feels weird, I mean Carthaginians somehow instantly constructing functioning harbors in their cities in 4k BC while others aren't even able to understand what a harbor is until five thousand years later.


But if you honestly if you really think free buildings are a better solution we could replace most existing UAs with other free buildings, there are quite a few to choose from after all.
 
I've always felt Harbor should be earlier in the tech tree. I mean, what does it do? Longer trade routes, naval production, and sea connections. None of that has much snowball potential. If there was a way to fit it into T5 (one earlier) I'd be on board.
 
I've never called you lazy, I was asking you a question; if you don't feel that giving away free buildings instead of coming up with a unique ability feels like lazy. I also never said that you SHOULD do anything, I was giving a suggestion. However considering how much harder you made the non-building thing out to be, it kinda answers the question.

Oh really? So what does this mean, exactly?

Honestly I'm not even sure why you're defending the free buildings, as a developer they must be driving you crazy. I mean even without the balance-issues free buildings just feel extreme lazy, boring and unimaginative, doesn't it?

Anyways...

But if you honestly if you really think free buildings are a better solution we could replace most existing UAs with other free buildings, there are quite a few to choose from after all.

You really need to dial it back a bit. A lot, actually.

Kolaris: I've always felt Harbor should be earlier in the tech tree. I mean, what does it do? Longer trade routes, naval production, and sea connections. None of that has much snowball potential. If there was a way to fit it into T5 (one earlier) I'd be on board.

I've thought about it, but it does make offshore expansion slightly more risky into the medieval era (which is a good thing). Generally, I tend to see the buildings in civ as representative of the 'largest entity' in a city. The fact that cities can make boats means that, on some level, they have naval infrastructure on the coast to deal with it. The actual harbor building just means that the city is now known for having a 'large harbor,' or perhaps even a renowned harbor. That's how I see it, anyways.

G
 
Oh really? So what does this mean, exactly?

Which part of it? I'm fine with giving Carthage any form of UA, I was just trying to save the essence of what It was before. If that's all too difficult they could just get that no isolation unhappiness thing from Indonesia, they certainly don't need it, their UA got another free +4 happiness in the last patch.
The no isolation thing is worth a lot less than free harbors, meaning one could add another big effect, that free instant-improvement of luxuries I mentioned for example.

End result would be something like this in that case.

Phoenician Heritage:
Settling or conquering a city instantly gives you control over and improves all luxuries within workable range as well as gives you gold, scales with era.
No unhappiness from isolation.

Wording is not my strong suit.
 
Which part of it? I'm fine with giving Carthage any form of UA, I was just trying to save the essence of what It was before. If that's all too difficult they could just get that no isolation unhappiness thing from Indonesia, they certainly don't need it, their UA got another free +4 happiness in the last patch.
The no isolation thing is worth a lot less than free harbors, meaning one could add another big effect, that free instant-improvement of luxuries I mentioned for example.

End result would be something like this in that case.

Phoenician Heritage:
Settling or conquering a city instantly gives you control over and improves all luxuries within workable range as well as gives you gold, scales with era.
No unhappiness from isolation.

Wording is not my strong suit.

I genuinely do not see the problem with Carthage getting free harbors. It allows for easy early growth, and the gold on city founding allows for fairly rapid early expansion. The Cothon comes online just as you are reaching the apex of your expansion, giving you (effectively) double the trade routes of all other civs at the time. Both bonuses fade with time, but Carthage's strong early start should give you a nice lead.

G
 
I genuinely do not see the problem with Carthage getting free harbors. It allows for easy early growth, and the gold on city founding allows for fairly rapid early expansion. The Cothon comes online just as you are reaching the apex of your expansion, giving you (effectively) double the trade routes of all other civs at the time. Both bonuses fade with time, but Carthage's strong early start should give you a nice lead.

There are 3 main reasons why I want the harbors out.

1. People have told me, and I agree with them that getting a building for free isn't very unique at all. All civs can build harbors, starting with them doesn't make you feel very special. On top of that their actual usefulness is kinda limited, sure they connect cities and save you a few gold per turn on maintenance. But naval travel is usually way too risky and not overly profitable early on. Extra range on the routes doesn't make much of a difference because you don't have enough ships to patrol the entire route making sure it is safe.
The free harbor thing was fine in vanilla, where there were quite a few civs with terrible or boring UAs (some that can hardly count as UAs), but with our updated system it feels like an insult to Carthage having them stuck with just a free building.


2. The historical thing, Carthage getting harbors five thousand years before anyone else knows how to build one feels kinda weird. Also the fact that our civilization have just managed to discover agriculture, have no idea what stoneworking, sailing or fishing is and somehow have a working, modern, fully functioning harbor there ready to go.


3. It falls off so incredibly quickly. Unless you're playing a serious archipelago map you're not going to get much use out of the free harbor before you reach the medieval era for the reason I've mentioned above. And once you've reach the compass tech all your UA really gives you is 2 gold per turn in maintenance, hardly amazing.

The free harbor started out kinda strong in vanilla, with harbors being fairly expensive and granting extra production on sea-resources. That put Carthage ahead a fair bit on heavy water-maps, saving gold on roads as well as having an easier time utilizing fish-tiles.
Later with BnW the bonus instead shifted to the improved naval trade-route thing we got today and for that reason got quite a bit worse. No matter how you see it, the number of cities needing a trade-boost are going to be limited. I'm not saying that the BnW Harbor was bad, it had it's uses but in most cases you would have been happier with the vanilla harbor.
In CPP the Harbor took another hit, with naval traderoutes no longer being completely broken to the point of caravans not being worth using. Don't get me wrong, that change was totally needed and is one of the best things done in CPP but it made the harbor and at the same time Carthage a lot worse.

I kinda liked the whole gain gold when settling thing you added for Carthage, but it always felt somewhat like a band-aid, like something were were supposed to go back and take a look at when things calmed down (hah, like that would ever happen, amirite? :D).
Even looking back at my latest suggestion it actually feels a lot more like a temporary thing than an actual solution as well, but at least it is a start.


(4) This is somewhat of a minor point, but inspired by your terrain-whine(:lol:) in the arabia thread I started thinking about how dependent on a coastal start that Carthage actually are. I mean there are quite a few civs that needs water or even needs coastal cities to be useful in civ, but the Carthaginian UA requires a majority of your cities to actually be coastal to have an direct impact on the game, and that's pretty harsh.
 
Your alternative to the current UA is not appealing, nor is it code-friendly.

Here's the deal: saying that you get a building before anyone else (for free) is 'not unique' is illogical. The very fact that you get it early, for free, makes it unique by the very definition of the word.

Furthermore, there's nothing 'band-aid' about gaining gold for settling cities. To be quite honest, this is one of those times where you, Funak, have decided that you don't like something, and you are now trying to reinvent the wheel and deploy every possible disparagement of the UA (including trying to 'appeal to the mob' with your "people have told me" statement) in order to get it to be what you want it to be. That kind of argument doesn't work very well.

I'm not particularly sure when, or why, you decided that UAs with free buildings are an evil, but they're not, and there's absolutely no reason for me to spend hours writing code to replicate what a harbor can do so that the word 'harbor' isn't in the Carthage UA text.

NOW, that said, am I open to alternatives? Sure, always. But being open to alternatives does not intrinsically mean that I dislike the current UA or find it lazy/boring/worthless/etc.

I've said this a few times, and I'm going to say it again: you really, really need to reel in your form of argumentation. The best way to present an argument is to highlight the value of the alternative viewpoint you hold, rather than disparaging the position of those you believe are against you. You make no friends doing the latter, and the former is far more likely to inspire others to help you brainstorm new ideas.

In short, instead of telling me all the ways this UA reflects laziness and misery, why don't you spend more time explaining how a different UA is fun?

G
 
Your alternative to the current UA is not appealing, nor is it code-friendly.
Absolutely, I have no idea what's code-friendly, and I only brought that grabbing and improving luxuries thing up because someone else mentioned it a while back. I'm not attached to it but I thought it felt pretty interesting. If someone is not code-friendly, or hard to code or anything else, just say so, I'm here giving suggestions not making demands and not trying to push a specific idea through. I however feel like I need to bring some kind of idea because if I dismiss an idea without one you tell me I'm being overly negative.

Here's the deal: saying that you get a building before anyone else (for free) is 'not unique' is illogical. The very fact that you get it early, for free, makes it unique by the very definition of the word.
Maybe it is unique, but it is not very unique :D

Here's the deal: Having boats that travel further than any other civ can is unique. Getting to keep every building including unique ones when you conquer a city is unique. Being able to buy tiles that other civs already own, that (no matter how frustrating or silly) is unique. Having access to a whole bunch of civ-specific pantheons is unique.
No matter where you are in a game, those abilities are still there, defining the civilization. You could do a information era start, and Rome would still be Rome.

Getting free harbors just does not make me feel that way. It feels more like 'Oh, I don't have to build harbors' rather than 'Wow, holy shirt, I'm Carthage I have awesome instant harbors!'
I've actually played like half a game as a landlocked Carthage, only to be awkwardly surprised when I reached the ocean and couldn't find the 'Build Harbor' button.

This is kinda iffy, but what I'm trying to say is that if I for example played as the old Arabia and started in a full grassland area I would instantly reroll because I wanted to make use of my unique ability. I just did not feel that way about Carthage. It is kinda hard to explain this, but it just doesn't feel very special to me.


Furthermore, there's nothing 'band-aid' about gaining gold for settling cities.
That's how it felt to me, and that's all I said about it.


To be quite honest, this is one of those times where you, Funak, have decided that you don't like something, and you are now trying to reinvent the wheel and deploy every possible disparagement of the UA (including trying to 'appeal to the mob' with your "people have told me" statement) in order to get it to be what you want it to be. That kind of argument doesn't work very well.
First of all, to quote yourself: "You really need to dial it back a bit. A lot, actually.". :D

Really I'm not trying to re-invent anything, I gave a suggestion for a change that I figured was minor, when you said it wasn't minor I pulled back and tried to figure something else out.

I'm also not trying to appeal to any mob anywhere, I do talk to people, a lot of people. Not here and not exactly related to CPP but the people I've talked to about Carthage in vanilla have been rather dismissive of the idea of instant buildings, and I do agree with them.
I did not honestly think it would need to be changed here at all, I figured someone would eventually come with some great idea that would replace the gold on settle thing, possibly taking the harbor down with it.

I'm not particularly sure when, or why, you decided that UAs with free buildings are an evil, but they're not, and there's absolutely no reason for me to spend hours writing code to replicate what a harbor can do so that the word 'harbor' isn't in the Carthage UA text.
Again, you don't have to do anything, it was just a suggestion. For someone who normally doesn't care much for my suggestions you sure are hung up on that one thing.
The Carthaginian did not necessarily need to change at this point, it was not a direct balance-issue like the free stone works for Egypt or the caravansaries for the Ottomans, but I always thought at some point someone would have to do something about them. I'm mostly just here now because it would be hypocritical to just attack two of the free buildings for being boring free buildings while one remains.
No time like the present.

In short, instead of telling me all the ways this UA reflects laziness and misery, why don't you spend more time explaining how a different UA is fun?
I can't do that, because suggesting a replacement is usually met with 'Don't fix what isn't broken' or 'Don't re-invent the wheel'. In fact even proposing a direct replacement would just sound like an arrogant demand. The process of replacing something clearly has to be first understanding why something needs to be replaced and then figure out a better solution. If I can't even pass the first point I'm never going to get to the second.

I can understand if you take things personally, after all you designed most of it (not the harbors in this case, but whatever). But you have to understand that with you having the final say on things there just isn't a counter for you saying "The current UA is fine", all I can do at that point is bringing up reasons why it isn't fine, because you're locked the alternatives down.
I'll be the first to admit that I use the response "I think it's fine" way too much, but considering I don't have any form of power over the project those words don't carry any form of weight.


That being said, I do really believe that the Carthaginian UA is going to have to change at some point, and I feel that we might as well get rid of the free harbor now if we are going to get rid of the other free UA buildings.
That being said I have no idea at all what would be easy to implement and what would be hard to, so I need you to tell me that instead of getting angry about me wanting you to work hours to change minor things.
That's all.
 
With all that out of the way, if one were to start over deciding on a theme would probably be a good first choice.


First of all I still do believe that the Indonesian 'no isolation' thing could be stolen, they are really powerful anyways and really don't need that effect.
Other than that, what are the key points of Carthage? Naval power, expansion and Trade? With the UB covering the trade aspect and the UU sorta covering the Naval power aspect the theme of the UA should probably be expansion (probably with a dash of Naval power to spice it up), any ideas?
 
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