Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

From SVN thread

I am not sure we need all these except for the graphics. Currently code for Colonist and Pioneer is in python and does not work for non-human players. Platyping pointed this out and posted a solution however that solution means that any settler unit will be acting like the most advanced settler unit you can have.

The differences between the units are speed of movement, terrain they can move on (I think, for later units), initial population and the buildings you (humans) get when you build the city.

I have been trying to flesh out my suggestions for starting city that would replace the python code as it stands. One problem is that the NewCityFree tag (contains tech at which the building will be free) correctly checks that the prerequisite buildings and resources and terrains are there but some of those prerequisite buildings are autobuild and they are built at the end of the turn so are not present when the city is built. Which means that those building that should be built aren't.

@koshling or other dll person I a not sure how easy it would be but could the end of turn autobuild function be called first when a new city is built before the python onCityBuilt (or whatever) is called? It should also have the effect that the dll pop-up for selecting what to build wont have these buildings in them. Currently that pop-up is suggesting I build the Trading Post which is an auto build building.

Since multimaps are not set up yet the last 2 settler units are set up for the 3 in one map script. The new "Orbit" terrain blocks any unit from passing through it and into space and then to the Lunar or Martian sub-maps.

The Space Settler and Seedships can enter impassable terrain and thus can leave the Earth sub-map and settle cities on the Lunar or Martian sub-maps. If made on a normal map it would not really make a difference other than at the moment they only make size 1 cities.
 
I think that the complaints about C2C becoming "boring" stem from the fact that you do almost the same thing in all ages grab land, build up your cities enough to get a good army and then go off and conquer others repeat. Which is OK if you just want war. We also have lots of buildings if you want to just build but it does get repetitive with the challenges often hidden.

There are two ages of exploration that spice things up. The initial exploration of your continent and surrounding islands, then the expansion of exploration to the rest of the world. If/when we get space then there will be up to two new exploration eras. Hopefully they wont be boring.

In the prehistoric and ancient we have hunting to spice things up. However there is noting special about the other eras.

I want to get on with the limits to movement mod mod which should further spice up the prehistoric to classical periods by limiting how far units can move from your cultural borders. With it we may be able to improve the non player AI by reducing its war imperative because there will not be anyone near enough to need to fight except barbarians and neanderthals. I was also thinking that the hunter and recon lines should merge into one at the time of ocean movement because that is more like what happens in history. Charles Darwin being an example of the merged unit.

So how can we make the eras different so you are not always doing the same stuff? What is it that made each era special? Can we change what we have to make things a bit more interesting?
 
I had a few ideas for the modern / TH era:

- In the future (and even now) there will be more and more fight for water and food. I was thinking if we should water make a new property.

- There should be more unrests. Bigger cities are to easy to get, thats why I suggest increasing unhappyness, rather a linear one. Not just "+1 :mad: per pop" but Like:
1 :mad: per pop if size is below 10.
2 :mad: per pop if size is between 10 and 20. (for every pop above 10)
3 :mad: per pop if size is between 20 and30. (for every pop above 20)
5 mad: per pop if size is between 30 and 40. (for every pop above 30)

So if you have size 33, you get (10 (10 pop below 10) +20 (10 pop between 10 and 20) + 30 (ten pop between 20 and 30) + 15 (3 pop between 30 and 33) = 75 :mad instead of 33.

-People are used to have shoes for example. They are no longer a luxury resource (in developed countries), they are now a basic requirement. So they should get :mad: if they are not around, not :) if they around (Hydro proposed that, I think).

- Due the increasing population, resources become rare in this era. Garbage runs out of control. Therefore, recycling becomes more and more important. This could be achived by stockpiling resources and resource depletion which should not be random but predictable. Every source of nonrenewable resource should have a limit (like 100.000) units. The more advanced your techs become, the more "units" you gather per turn, thus the faster these sources disappear.

- Since Air Pollution represents mostly CO2 in C2C (which I think is still completely wrong, the air was much more POLLUTED in the industrial age in europe, even thought today there is more CO2), the global warming should really be global. It would be most accurate if we had 2 properties: Grenhouse Gases and Air pollution. The latter should be more or less regional and represents SO2, Dust, Smog etc while the first one should be counted global and increases the chance for global warming effects. We can surely keep it as one if you want to. However, as I mentioned above, the global warming effects should add up. If China builds Coal Power Plants, burning forests etc, the Arctic will heat, too. In Civ 3 there was this global warming counter, that caused a global warming effect on a random plot, not tied to the most pollution player. We should add this, too, since this might cause wars on the most pollution enemies.

- Last but not least I try to start on the Electricity Property. This will add another strategy level and hopefully be a reason to fight over more deserts, Oil Wells etc then before (especially if Oil would be stockpiling and the sources are balanced so well that they slowly run out during this time ;) )
 
@Faustmouse

Wait with this increasing unhappiness. Wait till I develop my idea of colonization style workplaces. It will also add unemployment so it will be very hard to mantain big city.

Next I want to tweak from the bottom revolutions so big empires without freedoms will be very revolting.
 
@Faustmouse

The current air pollution property is a combo of CO2, Smog, Ozone Depletion, etc. I tried to keep it more like Sim City 4 in that they did not have a separate property for each type of air pollution.

@Nimek

I really wish TB was on top of the Disease system already since I think having major plagues infesting cities could really liven up the medieval era and put a damper on those who think its gets too easy/boring then.

I am tempted to make some place holders diseases, but I fear they will be so different from TB's proposed system that it would just confuse people.
 
I really wish TB was on top of the Disease system already since I think having major plagues infesting cities could really liven up the medieval era and put a damper on those who think its gets too easy/boring then.

I am tempted to make some place holders diseases, but I fear they will be so different from TB's proposed system that it would just confuse people.

I really dont think it get boring till Industrial Era and after, up till then you are motivated to do certain things almost all the time.
 
But the current Air Pollution system does not represent the heavy pollution in Industrial era very good.
There have been so many improvements in developed countries. During the Industrial revolution, birches were BLACK, lichen populations decreased a lot, people had serious health issues due the fine coal-dust particles in the air...

Excellent, Plagues woul be another great feature to spice things up!


The problem I can see with plagues, water shortage, turmoils etc is, that some people really don't like them. They play C2C like SimCity, only making progress but can't handle crisis. So instead of spice up things those addons might just raise the complainments of people who thinks the game is to annoying to play (like some see crime by now).


Edit:
More religious driven wars / bigger influence of religion would be nice in the medival era as well.
 
Well one thing I have learned from general game design is that there has to be conflict to make things fun and challenging. However you also need to give the players solutions so they will be rewarded for solving those challenges.

Each era should have a balance of these. Where perhaps they ave masted one problem but then another opens up that they have no dealt with before. Or even if they have its now a harder difficulty than before.

Personally the most rewarding games are the underdog games. Ones where I swear I was going to loose and then I pull myself up from my bootstraps and defeat the challenge. Games where I am so far in the lead it might as well be a single player game is not really that fun.

However I am hopeful that we can avoid such games that even if you reach "utopia" some sort of conflict arises to make the game challenging for you.

That reminds me I should work on the Natives with Guns stuff. That could keep primitives civs competitive with ones that are ahead.
 
I really wish TB was on top of the Disease system already since I think having major plagues infesting cities could really liven up the medieval era and put a damper on those who think its gets too easy/boring then.

I am tempted to make some place holders diseases, but I fear they will be so different from TB's proposed system that it would just confuse people.

I don't understand TB's disease stuff well. I would like to do the plagues from WorldReligionsRevived mod. They were more era related and much easier to understand than the property system we have.

That reminds me I should work on the Natives with Guns stuff. That could keep primitives civs competitive with ones that are ahead.

But that is just war and all war is the same and boring,:mischief:
 
In one mod I remember they really brought home the unhealthy issue with breakouts of the Plague. The more unhealthy your city, the more likely you get the plague. Not just population dies, but your garrison takes hits also and can die. Then you get a chance to move a unit from a plague city to a neutral city and spread the plague. Not just Bubonic either, the bird flu epidemic of 1919 killed millions worldwide. Remember Saars?

On a rollover I see a % vs wild animals AND % vs animals. Do they stack?
 
On a rollover I see a % vs wild animals AND % vs animals. Do they stack?

Yes.

The "wild animals" are units with the "bAnimal" flag set in the XML. This gives them some special properties, like not being able to enter the borders of a civilization (except barbarian).
The "animals" are units with a unit combat type of UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL.

It just so happens that almost all "animals" are also "wild animals" except, I think, just the tame ones you can produce like the tamed panther and subdued animals. Well, sea animals are "sea animals" not "animals", but they are still "wild animals".
 
I don't understand TB's disease stuff well. I would like to do the plagues from WorldReligionsRevived mod. They were more era related and much easier to understand than the property system we have.



But that is just war and all war is the same and boring,:mischief:

1. Well he explained it here.

2. True, but peace can be just as boring.
 
2. True, but peace can be just as boring.

Thats why it is soooo important to NOT have so many buildings that dont do anything but add :culture::gold::hammers::science::health: etc, and having better "events" making building very very important to strive for is waaay better than all those that do, IMPO. I'd rather shoot for something that will make big strides rather than all those "little" buildings.
Same goes for resources, no need for all of them, really IMPO, almonds and the lot, flowers, wares, ingots, i really dont see why?? And i mean no disrespect on these OK, again just MPO.
Personally i could do without a ton of those buildings. Now i like it where certain wonders provide ALL to certain stuff.
I like a "what IF" you built this "what IF" you built this kind of circumstances, but not severe stuff. Am i making any sense at all here, i am just writing and not thinking what i am writing, so sorry (maybe:dunno:)
 
I was thinking that we could better define stuff in eras. As I mentioned Exploration is at the start then again as first the oceans then space open up. It still occurs the rest of the time but those are the big eras.

Trade starts as nothing and grows more important in BtS as time goes on but in C2C it never gets more than a minor issue as everyone has everything.

For example, pollution is something that should not be a problem until the late Renaissance/Industrial periods and on. Is it possible to not have it in the game at all until then? That way it would be something new in those eras that I need to pay attention to rather than something that has been around for ever with nothing I can do about it giving the impression that it can be ignored.
 
I was thinking that we could better define stuff in eras. As I mentioned Exploration is at the start then again as first the oceans then space open up. It still occurs the rest of the time but those are the big eras.

Trade starts as nothing and grows more important in BtS as time goes on but in C2C it never gets more than a minor issue as everyone has everything.

For example, pollution is something that should not be a problem until the late Renaissance/Industrial periods and on. Is it possible to not have it in the game at all until then? That way it would be something new in those eras that I need to pay attention to rather than something that has been around for ever with nothing I can do about it giving the impression that it can be ignored.

Maybe we could run it as a "bonus" or a "promotion" if you do this then this will happen type of stuff. Really i think in the area more like WLBO type maybe??? I am just throwing stuff out there . . . . . :run:
 
Thats why it is soooo important to NOT have so many buildings that dont do anything but add :culture::gold::hammers::science::health: etc, and having better "events" making building very very important to strive for is waaay better than all those that do, IMPO. I'd rather shoot for something that will make big strides rather than all those "little" buildings.
Same goes for resources, no need for all of them, really IMPO, almonds and the lot, flowers, wares, ingots, i really dont see why?? And i mean no disrespect on these OK, again just MPO.
Personally i could do without a ton of those buildings. Now i like it where certain wonders provide ALL to certain stuff.
I like a "what IF" you built this "what IF" you built this kind of circumstances, but not severe stuff. Am i making any sense at all here, i am just writing and not thinking what i am writing, so sorry (maybe:dunno:)

I know its not always clear when playing but all those little buildings can build up to something bigger. The whole web of interconnected buildings continually unlock more and more types of things.

Rather than the old vanilla style where basically tech unlocked stuff and then you had it the whole web of buildings its like its own game in itself. So much so that a player can discover hidden things that they might not know is there if they build the right buildings.

And really this is the whole core of why I modded civ4 and joined you for C2C. It just took a few years to actually make them. And there are still more to go. I am surprised you of all people would be criticizing the amount of buildings in the mod. I mean when we joined up I already had a lot of buildings and said I wanted to span from Prehistoric to Galactic eras.

The only real difference between then and now is that we have had a lot of help. Thus being able to mod things faster. I mean really C2C is the "more is more" mod. Are you that surprised?

EDIT: Also with the freedom of adding more we have discovered so many new features over the years. There is so much we can do now and stuff I never even thought we could do. Stuff I did not even think we needed I cannot even imagine the mod without now. C2C is so rich and deep that other C2C mod don't even seem like the same game! Heck if I tried to play vanilla civ now, I would feel like I was in handcuffs.
 
The only real difference between then and now is that we have had a lot of help. Thus being able to mod things faster. I mean really C2C is the "more is more" mod. Are you that surprised?

I dont think i had my meds yet??:eek::p (My the way i am on Morphine, so does that tell you anything??:crazyeye:
 
I was thinking that we could better define stuff in eras. As I mentioned Exploration is at the start then again as first the oceans then space open up. It still occurs the rest of the time but those are the big eras.

Trade starts as nothing and grows more important in BtS as time goes on but in C2C it never gets more than a minor issue as everyone has everything.

For example, pollution is something that should not be a problem until the late Renaissance/Industrial periods and on. Is it possible to not have it in the game at all until then? That way it would be something new in those eras that I need to pay attention to rather than something that has been around for ever with nothing I can do about it giving the impression that it can be ignored.

I made a thread awhile back that outlined ways we could keep each era interesting.

Keeping the Game Challenging
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=477893

However I recall Joe criticizing it because it forced the player to play a certain way. However I think that if it was general enough that they could just make the era more rich and be a possible thing to happen during that era.
 
Has anyone ever looked at using worker units to add to city construction?

I sometimes have worker units sitting around doing nothing and if they even added just 1 extra hammer while sitting on a city I would feel this would be a great addition.

For new cities you could not only get all their plots worked quickly by a horde of workers but they could then sit there on the city and help build the first bunch of buildings.

This would be especially useful before hurrying production with gold comes into play.

Thoughts?
 
Has anyone ever looked at using worker units to add to city construction?

I sometimes have worker units sitting around doing nothing and if they even added just 1 extra hammer while sitting on a city I would feel this would be a great addition.

For new cities you could not only get all their plots worked quickly by a horde of workers but they could then sit there on the city and help build the first bunch of buildings.

This would be especially useful before hurrying production with gold comes into play.

Thoughts?

I've often thought about this but I've never done anything with it... mostly not enough time in a week to be whimsical about which project I'm working on - need to stay the course to achieve my goals. But I've also worried about game imbalance... if you simply build a LOT of workers you could end up with a LOT of production... could become a positive feedback wave that would lead to nearly infinite power.
 
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