Central Europe vs Eastern Europe

[TheLastOne36]

"African American" is the correct term . They're Americans of African origin, aren't they? Why not just call them Blacks? Or N*ggers?


No, we call it Eastern Europe because of what happened after the SU collapsed.What did happen after? We were slihgtly poorer? Yes we know, but that changed. What is the thing that happened?

Eastern Europe is the new term for Poland. Tell me why? BEcause of 20 years ago? How does half a century have over 1000 years of being central european?

I hope your not making up things now.

 

[Jan H]

It's not more accurate than this map:

This map is not entirely accurate either...
At the beginning of WWI, Belgium was neutral too, so we should be light green

 

[Mise]

I'm talking about EU enlargement, i.e. what happened between 2004 and 2007.

The boundaries of what Western Europe sees as "European" pretty much ends at the EU. That is, everything to the East of Poland, Estonia, Slovakia, etc is not truly a part of Europe. Russia, Ukraine, Belarus - not truly part of Europe. Europe is now defined by current political and economic alliances.

As such, Europe is a smaller place. And it makes no sense to define Poland - a country right on the very most Eastern boundary of the EU - as "central".

 

[TheLastOne36]

I'm talking about EU enlargement, i.e. what happened between 2004 and 2007.

The boundaries of what Western Europe sees as "European" pretty much ends at the EU. That is, everything to the East of Poland, Estonia, Slovakia, etc is not truly a part of Europe. Russia, Ukraine, Belarus - not truly part of Europe. Europe is now defined by current political and economic alliances.

As such, Europe is a smaller place. And it makes no sense to define Poland - a country right on the very most Eastern boundary of the EU - as "central".

Funny, This isn't about the EU, or economy, this is about Culture.

I agree with you, Poland is in the Eastern Half of the EU (maybe not for much longer if Ukraine joins, which i think they will).

So... Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, the Balkans, are all not in Europe? Who knew!

Face it or not, Europe is a cultural Term, not an Economical term. Europe isn't even a contenent, just a pinninsula, Armenia, Georgia, Cyprus, Cape Verde, Iceland, are all part of Europe, even thoguh they are not in Europe.

 

[Winner]

I'm talking about EU enlargement, i.e. what happened between 2004 and 2007.

The boundaries of what Western Europe sees as "European" pretty much ends at the EU. That is, everything to the East of Poland, Estonia, Slovakia, etc is not truly a part of Europe. Russia, Ukraine, Belarus - not truly part of Europe. Europe is now defined by current political and economic alliances.

This argument is kinda faulty. Eastern Europe is a Cold war term, before it it had been used almost exclusively for Russia/Soviet Union.

During the Cold war people "extended" it to traditionally Central European countries (Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary...).

Cold war is long gone, so it's natural that the Central European countries feel offended when people call them "Eastern" - it feels like people still connect them with the past, as if they were forever doomed to be just the inferior commie states. When the Western Europeans call us Eastern Europeans, it feels like they want to forever separate their übermensch Western utopia from the evil and poor (or worse, Slavic, bleh!) post-communists. What makes it even worse is that Communism has been imposed on Central Europe by the Soviets, it's not something we chose on our own free will. Why should we be punished for that forever? Do you think that Austria would like being called "Third Reich" long after WW2?

As such, Europe is a smaller place. And it makes no sense to define Poland - a country right on the very most Eastern boundary of the EU - as "central".

EU =/= Europe. Norway or Switzerland are not Europe, according to you? So what are they?

Anyway, when Finland and Austria joined in 1995, nobody called them "Eastern European", that term was used for the then non-members in Central Europe: Poland, Czechia, Hungary etc. It proves that the use of this term has nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Mise]

EDIT: x-post. This is for Winner as well. When you read this, please bear in mind that I'm NOT talking about historic Cold War terms - and not even the 1990s. I'm talking about Europe since 2004.

Funny, This isn't about the EU, or economy, this is about Culture.

It's not about any of those things, it's about values - liberal, democratic values.

I agree with you, Poland is in the Eastern Half of the EU (maybe not for much longer if Ukraine joins, which i think they will).

Perhaps if/when Ukraine and/or Turkey join, "Eastern" will be redefined again.

So... Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, the Balkans, are all not in Europe? Who knew!

Switzerland, Norway and Iceland share European values. If their population clicked their fingers and suddenly wanted to join the EU, they would of course be welcome (Norway was accepted 35 years ago!). The Balkans are slightly different. If they were to click their fingers and want to join as is, I doubt they would be accepted. But in reality, wanting to join goes hand in hand with wanting to modernise their social, democratic, and economic institutions. So if they - as I expect they will - modernise their institutions, they will want to join, and then be accepted, in the same way that PL and CZ did.

Of course, you are correct, though. They are part of Europe. But they are neither "Eastern Europe", nor "Western Europe". When we talk about Eastern and Western Europe, we are talking about only those countries that share values of other Eastern and Western European nations. So while we can talk of them as being European, we wouldn't talk about them being Eastern European or Western European.

I hope that makes sense to you. It's hard to put this into words.

 

[TheLastOne36]

EDIT: x-post. This is for Winner as well. When you read this, please bear in mind that I'm NOT talking about historic Cold War terms - and not even the 1990s. I'm talking about Europe since 2004.

It's not about any of those things, it's about values - liberal, democratic values.


Perhaps if/when Ukraine and/or Turkey join, "Eastern" will be redefined again.


Switzerland, Norway and Iceland share European values. If their population clicked their fingers and suddenly wanted to join the EU, they would of course be welcome (Norway was accepted 35 years ago!). The Balkans are slightly different. If they were to click their fingers and want to join as is, I doubt they would be accepted. But in reality, wanting to join goes hand in hand with wanting to modernise their social, democratic, and economic institutions. So if they - as I expect they will - modernise their institutions, they will want to join, and then be accepted.

Of course, you are correct, though. They are part of Europe. But they are neither "Eastern Europe", nor "Western Europe". When we talk about Eastern and Western Europe, we are talking about only those countries that share values of other Eastern and Western European nations. So while we can talk of them as being European, we wouldn't talk about them being Eastern European or Western European.

I hope that makes sense to you. It's hard to put this into words.

My point isn't as strong as winners, as he went more in-deph about it. Please Answer Winner's post.

 

[Mise]

My point isn't as strong as winners, as he went more in-deph about it. Please Answer Winner's post.

I don't see anything in Winner's post that is relevant to today. Your post was more substantial and relevant, imo.

 

[TheLastOne36]

This argument is kinda faulty. Eastern Europe is a Cold war term, before it it had been used almost exclusively for Russia/Soviet Union.

During the Cold war people "extended" it to traditionally Central European countries (Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary...).

Cold war is long gone, so it's natural that the Central European countries feel offended when people call them "Eastern" - it feels like people still connect them with the past, as if they were forever doomed to be just the inferior commie states. When the Western Europeans call us Eastern Europeans, it feels like they want to forever separate their übermensch Western utopia from the evil and poor (or worse, Slavic, bleh!) post-communists. What makes it even worse is that Communism has been imposed on Central Europe by the Soviets, it's not something we chose on our own free will. Why should we be punished for that forever? Do you think that Austria would like being called "Third Reich" long after WW2?

answer that.

 

[nonconformist]

So, uh, if Poland is so Western etc., why was it only allowe to join the EU in the last few years?

 

[TheLastOne36]

So, uh, if Poland is so Western etc., why was it only allowe to join the EU in the last few years?

if you can use logic, answer it yourself.

 

[Mise]

answer that.

I read that and rolled my eyes IRL, because it is exactly the kind of "PC nonsense" than Winner so hates. Using that as a basis for calling Poland "Central European" is euphemistic, and bears absolutely no relevance to today's modern Europe.

 

[philippe]

Totally not backwards at all.
Fully Westernized.



Poland will be one day perhaps as wealthy as western-europe but it always will be an Estern-European country in mentality if it keeps being what it is now: some overtly religious, nationalistic, eurosceptic, and mentally backwards country.

 

[nonconformist]

if you can use logic, answer it yourself.

Because Poland didn't satisfy the levels of westernisation required to be a member of the EU, until it was decided to expand the EU to include Eastern states, Poland, Bulgaria, Romania etc. and potentially Turkey.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Because Poland didn't satisfy the levels of westernisation required to be a member of the EU, until it was decided to expand the EU to include Eastern states, Poland, Bulgaria, Romania etc. and potentially Turkey.

Well how about Ireland?

We just came out of Communism, we had tons of Westernization to do. By 2000, we have done an incredible job to do so.Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovenia are all at the same level, if not higher then some Western European Countries. (Thinking about Portugal right now...)

 

[nonconformist]

Well how about Ireland?

We just came out of Communism, we had tons of Westernization to do. By 2000, we have done an incredible job to do so.Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovenia are all at the same level, if not higher then some Western European Countries. (Thinking about Portugal right now...)

Ireland was a country of religious extremists until recently, and had a reasonably poor economy.

As for Portugal, it's not Western either, it's Iberian.

 

[philippe]

Well how about Ireland?

We just came out of Communism, we had tons of Westernization to do. By 2000, we have done an incredible job to do so.Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovenia are all at the same level, if not higher then some Western European Countries. (Thinking about Portugal right now...)

Portugal was also under a dictatorship, like Spain. Ireland was in a civil war. It's not like you were the only one with a bad run in the twentieth century. How convienently you can forget such things

 

[TheLastOne36]

Totally not backwards at all.
Fully Westernized.

In short, this is the difference between western and eastern europe:

Pff, Maybe i should show examples of how "westernized" Portugal's, France's, Spain's, Greece's, italy's, German, Belguim's countrysides are! I don't understand where your going with the last pic.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I read that and rolled my eyes IRL, because it is exactly the kind of "PC nonsense" than Winner so hates. Using that as a basis for calling Poland "Central European" is euphemistic, and bears absolutely no relevance to today's modern Europe.

What? Are you kidden me? It explains perfectly the situation! Stop making up things just to win the arguement! It isn't PC crap.

 

[nonconformist]

You're just arbitrarily claiming countries are western now.

Portugal isn't Western.
Greece isn't western.
Spain isn't really western.
Italy is western, north of the Mozzgornio.
Germany is wetern, but Prussia etc. are not particularly western cultrures per se.