@Minou fun that you are giving this game mode a chance. Like the all standard thread, Babylon or Norway is probably the fastest, but there are some alternative strats that should give very fast games. Some that would be hard to do in a all normal game. Portugal with max civs and double sets of trade routes from ss should give you 50 + trade routes. Or China with all ancient and classical wonders. Khmer for sure is able to do a mean voidsinger game. The same for Ethiopia and Russia. All in all many setups that should work. And finding the right setup and synergies in the tweaking is almost the most fun part.
CFC: Fastest Deity Science Victory
Minou
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The Babylon game is going very well so far - I managed to snipe Religious Settlements on T19 by rushing Himoko and sending her first envoy to a nearby CS I was already Suzerain over thanks to Amani + first contact to get the 50f. Super fortunate I think, but I did stack the odds by banning civs like Khmer and Mali, so I'll take some credit for cooking the settings well.
Although I had played Barbarian Clans before I did not know you can sometimes get a tech boost from dispersing an outpost - I ran a quick test game because I actually had no idea how much faith Heroes cost to recall and wanted to test that before I continued my "cooked" HOF attempt I found it was 1000f, then 1340f, then 1840f - pretty darn expensive!). Anyway, while doing so, I ended up getting Military Engineering from dispersing an outpost in the test run! This makes Babylon slightly better with Barbarian Clans since they can score full techs instead of just 40% boosts. I am not at all sure how this works but I assume the odds are random and something lower than 50%....
Anyway now I am faced with a dilemma because I have a nearby outpost that is pretty well screened off from anyone else's meddling troops and I am not sure if it is smarter to clear it for Military Tradition boost and possible a free tech or let it grow into a city state that I should get a free first contact envoy for. I bought one Barbarian Horseman from it but it still says 50+ turns so it must be growing super slow (all 1 food tiles around it, I heard food somehow scales to the spped of "civilization" but haven't found the actually formula yet).
When I ran a test map of Islands and Continents and just revealed all on turn 5 most of the outposts seemed to be on islands or in the far north. I hope I can get to them for boosts or to meet the CS they become before Kupe does. Probably need to replace him with a different AI next game.
Although I had played Barbarian Clans before I did not know you can sometimes get a tech boost from dispersing an outpost - I ran a quick test game because I actually had no idea how much faith Heroes cost to recall and wanted to test that before I continued my "cooked" HOF attempt I found it was 1000f, then 1340f, then 1840f - pretty darn expensive!). Anyway, while doing so, I ended up getting Military Engineering from dispersing an outpost in the test run! This makes Babylon slightly better with Barbarian Clans since they can score full techs instead of just 40% boosts. I am not at all sure how this works but I assume the odds are random and something lower than 50%....
Anyway now I am faced with a dilemma because I have a nearby outpost that is pretty well screened off from anyone else's meddling troops and I am not sure if it is smarter to clear it for Military Tradition boost and possible a free tech or let it grow into a city state that I should get a free first contact envoy for. I bought one Barbarian Horseman from it but it still says 50+ turns so it must be growing super slow (all 1 food tiles around it, I heard food somehow scales to the spped of "civilization" but haven't found the actually formula yet).
When I ran a test map of Islands and Continents and just revealed all on turn 5 most of the outposts seemed to be on islands or in the far north. I hope I can get to them for boosts or to meet the CS they become before Kupe does. Probably need to replace him with a different AI next game.
Oooh, might have to jump in on this with the new modes. Seems like corporations is used...do you guys not have an issue accidentally winning culture with that on? I’d prob be playing Peter, spent like 3 months trying to go sub 100 on Babylon without modes and totally killed my desire to play
as an aside, apocalypse mode is also doable if you’re patient enough and willing to reload as disasters are reset like huts/meets on a random action—ie if you leave a scout squatting on a hut or a barb and you get wrecked by a blizzard etc, you can reload and pop the hut or whack the barb the turn before to remove the disaster
that’s probably too tedious for full-blown apoc mode but it would def allow you to set disasters to 3 or something with good yields and almost zero negatives if anyone wants to go that far
as an aside, apocalypse mode is also doable if you’re patient enough and willing to reload as disasters are reset like huts/meets on a random action—ie if you leave a scout squatting on a hut or a barb and you get wrecked by a blizzard etc, you can reload and pop the hut or whack the barb the turn before to remove the disaster
that’s probably too tedious for full-blown apoc mode but it would def allow you to set disasters to 3 or something with good yields and almost zero negatives if anyone wants to go that far
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Well you cant reload if you are posting it here, but for a non-HOF-game it will work. Great Bath cheesing might even be doable? I never checked if it would be fast enough. Anyways there should be some setups that will work with disasters. Rapa nui on a volcano map maybe? Im trying a Ethiopia game with Maui now. You can tweak it so that the you know pretty much what resources he will provide. It gives some interesting results. Will post a turn 100 status, and if its good enough, I will probably finish the game.
Yeah I know not to post non hof games here, that’s why my write ups have always been in other threads, just curious how far things can actually be taken with totally optimal settings + perfect turns, still useful for data. Kinda sad that no matter what we do though pillaging is gonna outshine everything, even a game that’s compulsively save scummed
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I have wondered the same. A sub 100 is within reach for Babylon even without tweaking and game modes I think. But it gets a bit boring to pillage for hours and hours. Right now peacefull games are just more interesting. Finding a good setup for a game when you can tweak everything is very fun, and reminds me a bit of drafting in DOTA.
Bangau
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sometimes giving away your great works is necessary...
Minou
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Well, I blew my great start be making a bunch of dumb mistakes. May have to make a second attempt.
I was wondering what people think about Shuffle with Babylon? It seemed risky to me. You could in theory luck out and get EE and SWF in the first row of Civics for quicker governors, and also could in theory get Political Philosophy as your 4th Civic (versus 6th minimum in normal games). But, it seems just as likely that PP gets stuck behind multiple Classical Civics or just hidden so that you don't even know which Civic to complete to unlock it, slowing you down. The same seems to be true of other key Civics like Mercenaries, Feudalism, or ones that unlock Governments - progress to your target is more likely to be slowed than sped up when you factor in the uncertainty.
On the tech side of it, I can see the appeal of maybe being able to get Rocketry faster. Right now I think you have to boost Flight, Replaceable Parts, and Steam Power to unlock Radio (unless you are super fast in culture) and Chemistry (I don't think this is ever possible fast enough to boost itself). In theory you could skip Radio and Chemistry (and some of those pre-reqs) entirely to get Rocketry quicker. But it could also get stuck behind techs like Nuclear Fusions and slow you down.
The one thing I was not sure about is whether Shuffle lets you have a chance that Offworld Mission is NOT the second to last tech in the tree (though the pre-reqs may make this more or less impactful than it seems at a glance.)
I was wondering what people think about Shuffle with Babylon? It seemed risky to me. You could in theory luck out and get EE and SWF in the first row of Civics for quicker governors, and also could in theory get Political Philosophy as your 4th Civic (versus 6th minimum in normal games). But, it seems just as likely that PP gets stuck behind multiple Classical Civics or just hidden so that you don't even know which Civic to complete to unlock it, slowing you down. The same seems to be true of other key Civics like Mercenaries, Feudalism, or ones that unlock Governments - progress to your target is more likely to be slowed than sped up when you factor in the uncertainty.
On the tech side of it, I can see the appeal of maybe being able to get Rocketry faster. Right now I think you have to boost Flight, Replaceable Parts, and Steam Power to unlock Radio (unless you are super fast in culture) and Chemistry (I don't think this is ever possible fast enough to boost itself). In theory you could skip Radio and Chemistry (and some of those pre-reqs) entirely to get Rocketry quicker. But it could also get stuck behind techs like Nuclear Fusions and slow you down.
The one thing I was not sure about is whether Shuffle lets you have a chance that Offworld Mission is NOT the second to last tech in the tree (though the pre-reqs may make this more or less impactful than it seems at a glance.)
Casualty of war
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Shuffle with Babylon is a gamble. Sometimes you're 3 Civics to Political Philosophy, sometimes 11! Sometimes you tech Rocketry before Flight, sometimes you can't find it on the tree after 120 Turns. And sometimes Offworld Mission shows up early.
Digging Robert Goddard out of the mix is glorious, because then you get Rocketry no matter where it is on the tree. 2 Broadcast Centers, an Aluminum Mine and you have plenty of things to do until you can find the last necessary techs.
Minou
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Have you been able to recruit Goddard on fast games? I have a hard enough time just getting Da Vinci. I do love the new card that gives +4GE points and +2 more for each Workshop, but I have pretty much given up on post-Industrial Great People since they jacked up the cost. I truly hate how the cost scales because there are some very interesting late game Great People that were added in NFP and I have never gotten any of them.
I am still learning how Heroes, Barbarian Clans, and Corporations work but oh my goodness Himoko is disgusting! I basically start every game with the plan to bounce Amani around until I find her and then just use two city states to round up a dozen 29CP (Himoko+Oligarchy) Warriors and start rolling. It's super powerful because you don't have to pay the levy cost or even build any supporting units so you can use your production and gold to expand and build infrastructure while the wars go on.
Someone mentioned the danger of accidental CV with these modes. I think it might be possible to just avoid most Monopolies by not connecting more than one of each luxury (though CS may "help" you by giving more and only worrying about the strongest Industries (e.g. never build the ones for unit construction or growth boosts). Killing off AIs lowers global tourism too, and you can pick the most culturally advanced AI to gift some GWs to. If I ever finish a game with these modes I will report back on how much of a problem tourism really ends up being.
I am still learning how Heroes, Barbarian Clans, and Corporations work but oh my goodness Himoko is disgusting! I basically start every game with the plan to bounce Amani around until I find her and then just use two city states to round up a dozen 29CP (Himoko+Oligarchy) Warriors and start rolling. It's super powerful because you don't have to pay the levy cost or even build any supporting units so you can use your production and gold to expand and build infrastructure while the wars go on.
Someone mentioned the danger of accidental CV with these modes. I think it might be possible to just avoid most Monopolies by not connecting more than one of each luxury (though CS may "help" you by giving more and only worrying about the strongest Industries (e.g. never build the ones for unit construction or growth boosts). Killing off AIs lowers global tourism too, and you can pick the most culturally advanced AI to gift some GWs to. If I ever finish a game with these modes I will report back on how much of a problem tourism really ends up being.
I think for a hof game shuffle should almost always be bad. Too much risk. For the first hero Anansi is also quite powerful. At least for a peaceful game. Getting that fast culture is so vital. Himoko is of course fun as well, and an easy way to explore fast.
Casualty of war
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Looks promising. I'll probably botch it. Yeah, triple first meet.
Casualty of war
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I've eliminated some terrible City-States from potential spawn but this was super lucky.
I was asking Mali to donate 2 Commercial Hubs and Markets when a volcanic eruption shredded my army, so I'm waiting for my temper and the landscape to cool before I return to this one.
I'm not sure this is such a great start. As the first cs, science ones are not that useful in my opinion. Early on you dont want to complete techs, and culture is much more critical. The concern for science doesn't really trigger until you have the infrastructure up to consistently get the boosts. At least that's how it feels in my games.
Minou
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Ha, I guess you could argue it is not a great start with "cooked" settings. In a normal game I would be thrilled to know there are three science CS in the game but I guess if you already know ALL the science CS are in the game you'd rather meet culture ones early. However, I would be happy with meeting any three CS in time for free envoys since in these crazy games I love bouncing Amani around to reveal new Heroes.
I'm going mad with all these crazy modes, I keep restarting because I am unfamiliar with stuff and mess up. What I have learned so far:
1. Even though I included no Religious CS and no Civs with faith boosts, it is still really hard to get Religious Settlements. I have started near Tobacco and went with God King, and even gotten a Relic and it is still usually gone by T18. Not sure how an AI is getting 25f that early under these conditions, they must be popping Relics?
2. Instead of building a Warrior first which I often did for exploration/protection, I find it is better to buy a cheap 95g one from a Clan. The Clans seem a lot less likely to swarm you early so you don't need the defense as much, and this has the added bonus of giving them 5 points towards "civilizing".
3. City States are constantly clearing all the Clans early, so I often use buy a Warrior from them and fortify it on the camp to preserve it so that it can become a CS.
4. If you are building Monuments and join Voidsingers, all your hammers invested in the Monuments are lost and you end up starting Old God Obelisks from scratch. I rage quit when this cost me 4 half-built Monuments! It seems if you have a Monument being repaired (fairly common since they are damaged when you capture AI cities) it turns into an Old God Obelisk and keeps its repair progress but you lose all progress if you swap it out of the queue.
5. The AI appears to do really badly get Golden Ages with all these modes, which seems weird to me since there are many more opportunities for Era Score. That makes it useful to time and early rush so that you start taking cities right as the Classical Era is about to start.
6. Heroes are even better than I thought. I didn't even know Himoko also gives +5 combat or that they can teleport. How powerful!
7. Heroes gain CP each Era but this does not update Heroes who are already on the board. So for combat-oriented ones like Arthur it nay be best to wait until the era ends (if that is close) to recruit them.
8. You can delete a Hero if you want them back with full charges and they have a lot of lifespan left. I have done this with Hercules if I get him in the Ancient Era and want a fresh set of districts early in the Classical Era. As bonus he also will come back with higher CP.
9. Sinbad seems never to appear unless you have a city on the coast, which makes sense since you can't recruit him otherwise.
10. I swapped Amani between CS and moved her back 2 turns later and ended up getting a lucky Hero. I know you get a 10% of discovering a Hero when sending an envoy to a City State, but I am not sure if Amani counts as 20% since she gives two envoys. At any rate, this means you can cycle her back and forth every two turns to get "scratch off tickets" with a chance of revealing another Hero.
11. The AIs seem to be slow and random about recruiting Heroes. I assume they just recruit the first one they discover, but don't seem to prioritize them very much. This is good for the player because I really want at least Himoko, Hercules, and Sinbad! I can't seem to find a way to tell if another Civ has discovered a Hero or not, which makes me chop to rush the best ones out of fear they will get sniped.
Does anyone know what makes a Clan start selling a unique unit? In one of my games they started selling Warriors and then switching to Eagle Warriors after 10 turns or so (wasn't paying attention). I assumed each Clan got "assigned" a Unique Unit and it unlocked when you reached its era, but many seem to start with a vanilla unit and get an Ancient Era unique at random.
I'm going mad with all these crazy modes, I keep restarting because I am unfamiliar with stuff and mess up. What I have learned so far:
1. Even though I included no Religious CS and no Civs with faith boosts, it is still really hard to get Religious Settlements. I have started near Tobacco and went with God King, and even gotten a Relic and it is still usually gone by T18. Not sure how an AI is getting 25f that early under these conditions, they must be popping Relics?
2. Instead of building a Warrior first which I often did for exploration/protection, I find it is better to buy a cheap 95g one from a Clan. The Clans seem a lot less likely to swarm you early so you don't need the defense as much, and this has the added bonus of giving them 5 points towards "civilizing".
3. City States are constantly clearing all the Clans early, so I often use buy a Warrior from them and fortify it on the camp to preserve it so that it can become a CS.
4. If you are building Monuments and join Voidsingers, all your hammers invested in the Monuments are lost and you end up starting Old God Obelisks from scratch. I rage quit when this cost me 4 half-built Monuments! It seems if you have a Monument being repaired (fairly common since they are damaged when you capture AI cities) it turns into an Old God Obelisk and keeps its repair progress but you lose all progress if you swap it out of the queue.
5. The AI appears to do really badly get Golden Ages with all these modes, which seems weird to me since there are many more opportunities for Era Score. That makes it useful to time and early rush so that you start taking cities right as the Classical Era is about to start.
6. Heroes are even better than I thought. I didn't even know Himoko also gives +5 combat or that they can teleport. How powerful!
7. Heroes gain CP each Era but this does not update Heroes who are already on the board. So for combat-oriented ones like Arthur it nay be best to wait until the era ends (if that is close) to recruit them.
8. You can delete a Hero if you want them back with full charges and they have a lot of lifespan left. I have done this with Hercules if I get him in the Ancient Era and want a fresh set of districts early in the Classical Era. As bonus he also will come back with higher CP.
9. Sinbad seems never to appear unless you have a city on the coast, which makes sense since you can't recruit him otherwise.
10. I swapped Amani between CS and moved her back 2 turns later and ended up getting a lucky Hero. I know you get a 10% of discovering a Hero when sending an envoy to a City State, but I am not sure if Amani counts as 20% since she gives two envoys. At any rate, this means you can cycle her back and forth every two turns to get "scratch off tickets" with a chance of revealing another Hero.
11. The AIs seem to be slow and random about recruiting Heroes. I assume they just recruit the first one they discover, but don't seem to prioritize them very much. This is good for the player because I really want at least Himoko, Hercules, and Sinbad! I can't seem to find a way to tell if another Civ has discovered a Hero or not, which makes me chop to rush the best ones out of fear they will get sniped.
Does anyone know what makes a Clan start selling a unique unit? In one of my games they started selling Warriors and then switching to Eagle Warriors after 10 turns or so (wasn't paying attention). I assumed each Clan got "assigned" a Unique Unit and it unlocked when you reached its era, but many seem to start with a vanilla unit and get an Ancient Era unique at random.
If you cut down the AIs to one, you will probably get it, but I assume you need AIs for warfare. Did you ever get any barbarian tribe to turn to a CS in time for it to matter? Many of your other observations I agree to. But I think Anansi is the strongest first pick for a hero, because you get early PP and fast track to feudalism.
Bangau
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Same here, only with incredible luck or very few AI you can get it. It's top of the list for the AI.
Used him recently to get six free Spaceports using this. Very OP.
What use do you see for him? I find the sea maps are bad for almost all fast SV strategies, and Sinbad is only useful with enough sea... Curious to see if you have other experiences.
I've gotten unlucky sometimes losing Himiko or Hercules to the AI, but most games they don't seem to bother and you can get them if you want.
Minou
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Regarding Clans turning into CS, I haven't actually played a game past T70 with these settings so have not actually seen it happen. I have basically been messing around with different opening / midgame strategies to fine tune my approach before I invest in a HOF attempt (takes me forever to play seriously with no re-loads). The two games I thought I would actually play through I rage-quit once because I messed up not knowing how Heroes were recalled the first time and because a non-combatant AI undid my levy right before I captured 3 cities the second time.
Does anyone know the math behind Clans turning to CS? I know it has something to do with food but even though the bar moves it always seems to say 50+ turns. I figured worst case I could just buy a unit from them 4 or 5 times to get them converted by T100 or so? It depends on the CS, having one like Akkad appear late in the game will do nothing, but others like Hong Kong can still help even in the last 5 turns. My logic selecting 22 options (with 18 starting) was that I would get all 22 eventually but if this is implausible I might need to re-consider my settings and just pick the best 18.
For Religious Settlements, one AI would guarantee it but I think having more targets to conquer is more important. I actually bumped from 7 to 10 AIs as I have been practicing. That hurts RS odds further, but I feel the extra 3 help make sure there is a neighbor to rush more often (and another nearby for War #2). It also provides more trade opportunities, but hurts in leaving less chances for meeting CS in time for the free envoy and scoring fewer huts.
I have been wondering if I should re-instate the faith-boosted AIs since RS seems so unlikely. I had banned Georgia and Mali, but they would be nice since Georgia buys DF for a lot of gold and Mali builds lots of Commercial Huts which are good to conquer early or pillage later. I started removing China because they always seem to get walls before everyone else, making them tough to attack. I am suspicious they may be programmed to prioritize Masonry in order to unlock Great Wall, but they never seem to actually build any!
Hercules I just love, it is so fun to pump out a like an Encampment, a Harbor and an Industrial Zone 1-2-3 to help with the MT, MF, Cartography, and Industrialization boosts and though I have not gotten to the end game yet but free Spaceports sound great especially since Neighborhood Gold was removed. I had Hercules+Himoko once and he was bulldozing cities too!
Sinbad I only tried once so far but he got me 1000+ gold in like 8 turns. I have been using Continents and Islands, so he was my first unit to cross the ocean and thus easily found two new continents. Natural Wonders are more hit and miss, but he can also farm seafaring barb camps for gold. I don't think he is ever worth recalling but as let's say he's your third hero you are basically paying ~300h for a few thousand gold plus useful exploration. He can also help assault a coastal city. Of course he is much worse on Pangea.
In almost all my games one or two AIs will have a hero by T50, which considering there are 10AIs in my settings mean they really do not prioritize them. I often lose Hercules or Anansi to them in games where I have not discovered them by then, but that is just bad luck I think.
Does anyone know the math behind Clans turning to CS? I know it has something to do with food but even though the bar moves it always seems to say 50+ turns. I figured worst case I could just buy a unit from them 4 or 5 times to get them converted by T100 or so? It depends on the CS, having one like Akkad appear late in the game will do nothing, but others like Hong Kong can still help even in the last 5 turns. My logic selecting 22 options (with 18 starting) was that I would get all 22 eventually but if this is implausible I might need to re-consider my settings and just pick the best 18.
For Religious Settlements, one AI would guarantee it but I think having more targets to conquer is more important. I actually bumped from 7 to 10 AIs as I have been practicing. That hurts RS odds further, but I feel the extra 3 help make sure there is a neighbor to rush more often (and another nearby for War #2). It also provides more trade opportunities, but hurts in leaving less chances for meeting CS in time for the free envoy and scoring fewer huts.
I have been wondering if I should re-instate the faith-boosted AIs since RS seems so unlikely. I had banned Georgia and Mali, but they would be nice since Georgia buys DF for a lot of gold and Mali builds lots of Commercial Huts which are good to conquer early or pillage later. I started removing China because they always seem to get walls before everyone else, making them tough to attack. I am suspicious they may be programmed to prioritize Masonry in order to unlock Great Wall, but they never seem to actually build any!
Hercules I just love, it is so fun to pump out a like an Encampment, a Harbor and an Industrial Zone 1-2-3 to help with the MT, MF, Cartography, and Industrialization boosts and though I have not gotten to the end game yet but free Spaceports sound great especially since Neighborhood Gold was removed. I had Hercules+Himoko once and he was bulldozing cities too!
Sinbad I only tried once so far but he got me 1000+ gold in like 8 turns. I have been using Continents and Islands, so he was my first unit to cross the ocean and thus easily found two new continents. Natural Wonders are more hit and miss, but he can also farm seafaring barb camps for gold. I don't think he is ever worth recalling but as let's say he's your third hero you are basically paying ~300h for a few thousand gold plus useful exploration. He can also help assault a coastal city. Of course he is much worse on Pangea.
In almost all my games one or two AIs will have a hero by T50, which considering there are 10AIs in my settings mean they really do not prioritize them. I often lose Hercules or Anansi to them in games where I have not discovered them by then, but that is just bad luck I think.
Is it Babylon with warfare you are aiming for with a HOF-game? Any thoughts on how fast you will aim for after your tests?
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