Chariots: Cut or Keep?

[seZereth]

I think cutting or keeping is not the actually point to decide over, here.
Like many suggested, simply start a serious discussion about how to improve and diverse the mounted line. I think a lot of good ideas have already been mentioned here and a clean, guided discussion about how to improve might be the best thing to do now.

 

[ushram]

Don't cut Chariots, just differentiate them from other mounted units more. I think they should have difficulty (possibly the inability to move to, possibly a big combat penalty) in tougher terrains/features, possibly requiring roads to move there (I think Jeckel make a modcomp that could be borrowed for this).

I'm thinking War Chariots need to have collateral. Chariots should not be good at withdrawing like other mounted units. It might be appropriate to make them seperate unitcombat. If the AI could handle it I might recommend lowering their strength but letting them carry some cargo. out to the battle field for more conventional fighting, as historically chariots were often more useful as troop transports than in actual fighting.

I agree with you 100% Magister, absolutely no need to cut chariots, just differentiate them from other mounted units more.

 

[lordrune]

I'm really enjoying chariots in my current Doviello game - first time I've ever actually used them, and it won't be the last. They're well differentiated from horsemen thanks to the metal. I'd be really sad to see them go.

 

[3141592]

I voted to cut chariots at least in thier current form. Gameply wise they just don't make sense, knights should be far superior and versitile, there is a reasons you only see chariots before the advent of serious mounted troops.

However I do like the mounted branch, although I normally don't go down it the few times I have (even when not the hippus) have shown to me that it is viable and the units down it are powerful. I'd say knights should keep thier current strengh and tech but they should no longer be national units. This woul lead to the interesting possibility of investing massive amounts of time into a weak tech branch to finally get unlimited amounts of very strong untits. The disadvantage of having weak arcane units and archers ect. should make up for the fact they would no longer be constrained.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

I would move them to a different branch, like construction and engineering. Also give them a different purpose, that carrying a land unit is a very nice idea but then you would have to slow them down [2 move points, max 3 with upgrades] Giving them collateral is also nice.

As far as I know in history horse archers were a formation far superior to chariots. Someone has more info about the background of those units?

I voted them to cut cause now they do not fit were they are and are awfully annoying in the hands of AI

 

[Domingo]

I voted to remove but I think if they were differentiated more from the mounted line they would be more useful.

 

[Grey Fox]

I voted to keep, but only if they are made different. I don't like the current versions of them, especially not war chariots vs knights.

 

[R0GERSHRUBBER]

I say cut chariots as a standard unit, but allow a Civ or two to keep them (Malakim because of their pseudo-egyptian style, the Hippus because of their mounted dominance, or perhaps one of the Dwarven races because of their technological capacity). They are really not sufficiently different from the other mounted units to justify keeping them, and I think they may even strain the theme a bit.

 

[iffi]

First the suggestions,

1) Replace Chariots with metal weapon Mounted Warriors (at least Bronze Working required).
- Equal off and def power, similar to Horsemen
- Additional +1 str or not (like Mounted Mercs)
- Additional perk(s)? If notable, then penalties in woods and/or city attack

The following two are just daydreaming..

2) Nyxkin and Boar Riders instead of Horsemen when approppriate.
- Upgradable to appropriately named mounted warriors
- Block the top tech in mounted line for elves and dwarves
- Add some spiffy Pegasi as end unit for elves at Armoured Cav (see point 3, or block)
- Alternatively, allow some neat promotion upgrades to existing units at the end techs

3) Switch War Chariots and Armoured Cavalry (the availability; on the tech tree).


.. then the comments.

1) Can't imagine chariots in FFH.
- Hence, have not used them after a couple of tries (in almost 2 years)
- Mounted Warriors to later upgrade to Horse Archers or Heavy Cav.
- Using mounted units to crack open cities always feels weird, but city attack penalties would make the AI much weaker.

(For the following points, keep in mind that I can not play maps larger than Standard)

2) At higher difficulty levels I just do not find the resources to invest in these special but not really necessary units with the elves and dwarves. Even at advanced start. When I do, the game is already won. Strenghts scaled down of course.

3a) Similar to point 2. I have used the units available at Armoured Cav only a few times because at the time I get it researched the game is already won. So I never can enjoy these wonderful special units!

3b) War Chariots are awesome city crackers, no need for siege nor offensive magic/divine powers. Hence, it gets boring eventually and you go look for the alternatives. Chariots are ok as end-game national unit brooms, still anyting else would be better.

 

[Alzara]

Remove war chariots, keep normal ones

Al

 

[Sarisin]

I used to always build Horsemen first as the required tech came faster usually. Now, however, I skip the Horsemen and go for Chariots

I voted to keep them.

 

[maglock]

Possible idea for chariots:

Give them a new mechanic similar to Great Commanders. A newly built chariot
starts with :
- 0 strength
- 2 movement
and gives units in the stack the "board chariot" promotion.

Boarding the chariot gives the unit :
- +1 strength
- +1 first strike
- immunity to first strikes
- +1 movement
and the "exit chariot" promotion.

War chariots can be beefed up with:
- +3 strength
- +1-2 first strikes
- immunity to first strikes
- +1 movement
- collateral damage
and the "exit chariot" promotion.

Then make chariots indestructible. ie When the unit dies, others can board it, or the
enemy can capture it.

Edit: Only available to units with base 1 movement

 

[Ekolite]

I think the idea is to simplify things, not make them more complex.

 

[blacknight]

I do not like chariots in their current incarnation. I feel they are too generally useful in game for what a chariot could actually do, and overshadow all other mounted units in the process. Chariots, in my opinion, need some sever difficult terrain penalties if kept. I love seeing them riding the plains; very flavorful. They are just too generally useful.

I add my voice to the suggestion of having horseman and horse archers being the two mounted lines, dropping war chariots for an national horse archer (Magundai?), and changing chariots to do collateral damage but have -50% city, forest, hills attack and no metal weapons.

PS - a high level mounted promotion (e.g. War-Horses) really needs some sort of econ bonus (e.g. tournament grounds building: +2 happy, +2 Culture, +5 Gold).

PPS - Please, whatever you do, keep it simple. No chariots with cargo capacity, or as equipment.

edit: PPPS - War Chariots available as Hippus UU's only is a wonderful suggestion.

 

[Darksaber1]

If Chariot are cut, keep them as a unit for Dwarves and possibly Malakim and Hippus (note: keep the Centaur/Chariots as UU). After all-Dwarves are more advanced then Human/Elves ect., and lore wise riddding pigs dosen't provide as much shock and a chariot.


If Chariots are keep, I like Magister's sugestions, or maybe reduce chariot tech-requirments to animal handaling and construction, maybe a small few more hammers if so.

In any case, let other horses use metal weapon. I voted to keep chariot.

 

[MrUnderhill]

I voted "Kael's crazy" because there was no option for "Keep Chariots but make them drastically different from other mounted units". I liked MC's idea about being able to load slower units onto them. It's flavorful and gives you an alternative to spamming Mobility and/or Haste.

As for the other units in the chariot line:
War Chariots: Make 'em Hippus UU's with collateral damage.
Ophanim (Mercurian UU for War Chariots): Downgrade to Chariot-level strength but let them keep Flying. That way they can transport a few units over water or peaks without ships.
Rathas: Meh, keep 'em as they are. They'd make a good Malakim UU but I can't think of what would replace them for the Empyrean.
Transport Golem: Add a new Luchuirp UU with extra cargo space and/or movement. Golems can't get Haste or Mobility so this should be helpful to offset that.

 

[GePap]

I think cutting or keeping is not the actually point to decide over, here.
Like many suggested, simply start a serious discussion about how to improve and diverse the mounted line. I think a lot of good ideas have already been mentioned here and a clean, guided discussion about how to improve might be the best thing to do now.

I think seZereth is completely correct here, that this is more about how to handle mounted units than about chariots specifically.

Personally, I liked the idea that has been proposed of splitting the mounted line into light (faster, greater withdrawal, weaker attack) and heavy (higher attack, slower, less chance for withdrawal). The base mounted unit could remain the horseman (who should take weapons promotions) and then allow for the split, like TheJopa suggested.

The light line should be about scounting, harrasing weak enemies, cutting the lines of supply. It could be given access to sight promotions, given flanking damage powers against siege and archers, increased pillage yields, and at high levels, possibly the marksman promotion. It could have its own NU.

The heavy line should be about battle in the field. High attack, decent defense in the field, but penalties for defending in cities and rough terrain. Attack bonuses against melee units and seige weapons. At higher levels, it should have access to blitz. In fact, having blitz could be the big bonus for the upper end heavy mounted units, given how rare blitz is in this mod.

Also, given the lore, perhaps the Hippus only could be given access to a weak charriot very early on and without building restrictions, at exploration. Perhaps a 3/2/3 unit, giving them a use for their palace provided horses long before they get to horse ridding.

The charriot art could be kept, specially for the dwarves, given that lorewise they are master of craft, and not likely to get on horses. Charriots and warcharriots could be their heavy line, while the boar riders remain their light mounted line.

 

[EmptyWolf]

I am strongly in favor of keeping Chariots but simply making them unique.

 

[Kael]

Keep in mind that a vote for "keep chariots but change them dramatically" implies that you dont see much value in their current incarnation. Thats a common reply to anytime we ask to cut something and is more an objection to removing something (most prefer to see things added) that it has to do with the object in question.

The ideas to have chariots unable to enter some features or to transport land units are both very bad for the AI. In the first we will create WoC issues, handicap the AI (who will be buildings units without understanding that he cant get them to his enemies). The second will be simply ignored by the Ai or lock up units without an understanding of when and where to transport the unit to. Both pretty cool flavorful ideas, but not worth the AI cost.

 

[GePap]

People might be more receptive to cutting chariots if it is done at the same time a clear alternative is given to making the mounted line viable and fun. Although, given the way the poll is going, cutting chariots seems to be the more popular course.