Chariots: Cut or Keep?

[Ekolite]

Guys, see patch f.

War chariots are cut, normal chariots are still in.

 

[Schmoe]

I don't know why anyone would consider cutting chariots. Aside from the National units, they are the only combat-capable mounted units in the game (thanks to metal use). Blackmantle said it very well.

 

[Darksaber1]

Why cut Centaur Guards
Couldn't they just be a UU?

 

[Hanny]

Anyone who was anyone had chariots in history, but were rapidly suplanted by horsemen, they remained in use not because of battlefield use, but because of startegic depth of operation,( along with social pressure) resulting in all ancient empires being required to build fortifications to a greater depth than otherwise was the case where no such depth of operations was evident, Egypt crust of fortificvations towards its interior in Africa, and multiple depth of fortifiucations along the coast and Palastine is a good example.

3 man chariot can take its own logistics with it and in 10 hours cover 80 miles to threaten, easly double the distance the threat of footborne only. It can take logisticals, priciply water and dried food) with it and live of it far longer than a man doing the same.

Cut chariots by all means, always been a wasted line in my book.

 

[Kael]

Why cut Centaur Guards
Couldn't they just be a UU?

The Kuriotates already had a UU in the knight slot. So instead the Centaur Guard UU model was made into a hero (it was always my favorite centaur model anyway). Which I think is more fun and interesting.

 

[Iainuki]

There should be two "good" high-level units on the horsemen line. (Especially since there's a civilization that revolves around horses in the game whereas melee units are more or less clearly the best in all circumstances.) There's also a clear historical guideline to how this can work: heavy cavalry (shock cavalry, carried melee weapons like swords and lances, wore heavier former; canonical European knights fall into this category) and light cavalry (ranged cavalry with missile weapons like bows; the Mongols were an example).

Heavy cavalry should get a bonus against archery units and be able to use metal upgrades, light cavalry get a bonus against heavy cavalry and melee infantry and probably not use metal. Chariots should be an early-arriving horse unit that can upgrade into either of the two lines.

Chariots: 3/3/3, doesn't get defensive bonuses, can use bronze weapons, requires Animal Husbandry, Exploration, and horses.

Heavy Cavalry:

Lancers: 4/4/3, +40% against archery units, can withdraw from combat (10% chance), can use bronze, iron, and mithril weapons, don't get defensive bonuses, requires Horseback Riding, horses, and stables.

Cataphracts: 6/6/3, +40% against archery units, can withdraw from combat (10% chance), can use bronze, iron, and mithril weapons, don't get defensive bonuses, immune to first strikes, require Stirrups, horses, and stables.

Knights: 9/9/3, national units, +40% against archery units, can withdraw from combat (30% chance), can use bronze, iron, and mithril weapons, don't get defensive bonuses, immune to first strikes, require Warhorses, horses, and stables.

Light Cavalry:

Skirmishers: 4/4/3, +40% against heavy cavalry and melee units, can withdraw from combat (25% chance), don't get defensive bonuses, require Stirrups, horses, and stables.

Horse Archers: 7/7/3, +40% against heavy cavalry and melee units, 1 first strike, can withdraw from combat (35% chance), 20% chance to do 10% damage to attacking units, don't get defensive bonuses, require Stirrups, horses, and stables.

Elite Horse Archers: 11/11/3, national units, +40% against heavy cavalry and melee units, 1 first strike, can withdraw from combat (35% chance), 40% chance to do 20% damage to attacking units, don't get defensive bonuses, require Warhorses, horses, and stables.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Elite Horse Archers: 11/11/3, national units, +40% against heavy cavalry and melee units, 1 first strike, can withdraw from combat (35% chance), 40% chance to do 20% damage to attacking units, don't get defensive bonuses, require Warhorses, horses, and stables.

I like your ideas, but one thing on the name. If we're going to go ahead with a real-world name reference like Cataphracts, the previously suggested Mangudai name may as well be used too.

 

[Breunor]

I like your ideas, but one thing on the name. If we're going to go ahead with a real-world name reference like Cataphracts, the previously suggested Mangudai name may as well be used too.

I'm not sure I agree with you here Micky. Mangadai was a tactic used by the Mongols, not the name of the military unit itself. The cataphracts were the actual name.


Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Micky Onimusha]

I'm not sure I agree with you here Micky. Mangadai was a tactic used by the Mongols, not the name of the military unit itself. The cataphracts were the actual name.


Best wishes,

Breunor

Might not have been the name (my only exposure to them was the AoE unit) but it's a word highly associated with Horse Archers. And after all, we do have the Phalanx in as a unit already.

 

[rusty217]

I voted to keep Chariots, but only because I want the ORC Champion and Immortal back.

 

[Annex]

The Kuriotates already had a UU in the knight slot. So instead the Centaur Guard UU model was made into a hero (it was always my favorite centaur model anyway). Which I think is more fun and interesting.

What about the Hippus War Chariot? It would be a shame to lose such beautiful artwork.

 

[Iainuki]

I like your ideas, but one thing on the name. If we're going to go ahead with a real-world name reference like Cataphracts, the previously suggested Mangudai name may as well be used too.

Unfortunately "Mangudai" is pretty ambiguous, because sources disagree on whether it was the name of a tribe or person, or a more general term for Mongol military units. There isn't as good a generic term for light cavalry, unfortunately. "Cataphracts" originated from a Greek word that they used to refer to all heavily-armored melee cavalry, with multiple ancient authors attesting to it; people used it, to my understanding, until up past the Roman era where the ancestors of the word "knight" developed under Charlemagne and his successors.

That said, I don't know what to call them. The Mongols had "mangudai" and "keshiks," among other terms. "Phalanx" is pretty Greece-specific, other civilizations had different formations of spearmen. We also use other words for other heavy (melee) infantry such as the legions of ancient Rome.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think a Cuirassier ( mounted arquebusier ) would be great as a NU that upgrades from horse archers. quite flavourful and cool.

I think I concur.

The Kuriotates already had a UU in the knight slot. So instead the Centaur Guard UU model was made into a hero (it was always my favorite centaur model anyway). Which I think is more fun and interesting.

I've always thought that Centaur Guards should be the Kuriotates Royal Guard UU. All their other mounted units are centaurs, so why should Cardith's most loyal guards be humans on horseback instead? (I also think that thematically it might be appropriate for this civ to get the unit from Godking instead of Aristocracy.)


(Why is their new hero the only Centaur that can't get defensive bonuses?)

 

[Darksaber1]

I've always thought that Centaur Guards should be the Kuriotates Royal Guard UU. All their other mounted units are centaurs, so why should Cardith's most loyal guards be humans on horseback instead? (I also think that thematically it might be appropriate for this civ to get the unit from Godking instead of Aristocracy.)

Yeah, that sounds like a googd idea.

 

[Mesix]

Are there chariots in the game?

I've never seen them, used them, or seen the AI use them. If something isn't used...get rid of it!

 

[Squirrelloid]

I like TheJopa's suggestion of splitting the mounted line into light and heavy. My suggestion would be to keep chariots as an early game mounted unit, upgradeable into the light or heavy line first-tier unit.

You could actually consider splitting mounted units into three lines: heavy cavalry, light cavalry, and horse archers, with national units at the culmination of each. Chariots would upgrade into the first-tier unit of each line. And war chariots, although they can be fun to play with, don't make sense as a late-game powerful mounted unit, for the historical reasons others have mentioned.

Uh... light cavalry means horse archer (or other ranged weapon). What do you think light cavalry is? Heavy refers not to amount of armor, but the fact that you hit stuff with a melee weapon, for both infantry and cavalry. (Hence light infantry is archers, peltasts, etc...)

I support Iainuki's point. Light and heavy cavalry should be as distinct and well-developed as light and heavy infantry are.

Honestly, I would axe the idea that the recon line is supposed to provide real military power and cut it down to two units (the scout, and something in tier 3ish that is Str 4-5 but fast and can see far). Make them fast, give them scout, but no one has ever used a dedicated recon unit as an attack force - what are a handful of scouts supposed to do against a legion of infantry? Remember, each unit represents an army in itself, not individual guys. The beastmaster unit is just ridiculous. And I mostly find the recon line useless anyway, because its techs are so low value otherwise that I never bother to research them.

 

[Breunor]

Might not have been the name (my only exposure to them was the AoE unit) but it's a word highly associated with Horse Archers. And after all, we do have the Phalanx in as a unit already.

I usally associate Mangadai with the tactics, but the origin of the term is obscure; however I don't associate it with anything besides the Mongols and I really do think it is a tactic in modern use; I guess I view calling cavalry 'Mangadai' is similar to calling tanks 'blitz'. With Phalanxes, I'm not sure if the term was first the formation and unit got its name form it, or if it was a unit name and the formation got its name from the unit -- I suspect the latter.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Grey Fox]

I wouldn't say one unit represents an army, maybe a company of around 200 men.

 

[Breunor]

There was a difference in the ancient world between actual 'light cavalry' and cavalry archers. Light cavalry did not autimatically mean bow armed. For instance, the Roman light cavalry usually didn't use bows. The Persians used both types. They were simply horse based warriors without substantial armor or heavy weapons. They often used swords or spears.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was hoping I could exploit the new upgrade paths to make all by mounted units be Dexterous, but the upgrade across unitcombats remove the normally unavailable promotions. I sure hope the same doesn't apply to things like City Raider II and III.