Child Abuse "On The Verge Of Torture" In The Name Of Christ

[Crezth]

Let's see, it's so incredibly simple I can't even believe that I have to tell you the obvious answer... political expediency. I really can't even believe you are calling this revisionism... it's quite disgusting and shows your agenda.

Don't tell me Christians don't have a vested interest in demonstrating that Hitler wasn't Christian.

Go ahead and believe that Hitler was a Christian... here are some quotes.
Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953).

You realize, of course, that there's quite a degree of controversy on his discussion of religion in that book?

Actually, some of that sounds a lot like what you say about Christianity on this website. Are you a Christian?

What?

 

[LightSpectra]

Only Hitler could have done nothing without the direct support of tens of millions of devout Christians in Germany and hundreds of millions in Europe, and even many millions in the US.

Counting them all as Christians is a fallacy of definitions and statistics, as described here.

The "bigotry" here seems quite clear. It is the continuing attempts to divorce the Nazis and the Holocaust from Christianity. It can perhaps be argued that Hitler was not a Christian, but that certainly wan't true for the vast majority of his followers.

Name one credible historian that says that Hitler was a Christian white supremacist. Just one. I'll wait here happily.

It's pretty universally acknowledged that Hitler was no Christian. I'm just here to dispel what remains of that myth.

Again, the RCC didn't even try to distance itself from overt antisemitism until the 1960s. It was pervasive in Europe and the US at the time.

Excerpt from Mit Brennender Sorge, a 1937 Papal encyclical that was read as a homily in every German Catholic Church at Mass, in German:

"23. You will need to watch carefully, Venerable Brethren, that religious fundamental concepts be not emptied of their content and distorted to profane use. "Revelation" in its Christian sense, means the word of God addressed to man. The use of this word for the "suggestions" of race and blood, for the irradiations of a people's history, is mere equivocation. False coins of this sort do not deserve Christian currency. "Faith" consists in holding as true what God has revealed and proposes through His Church to man's acceptance. It is "the evidence of things that appear not" (Heb. ii. 1). The joyful and proud confidence in the future of one's people, instinct in every heart, is quite a different thing from faith in a religious sense. To substitute the one for the other, and demand on the strength of this, to be numbered among the faithful followers of Christ, is a senseless play on words, if it does not conceal a confusion of concepts, or worse."

Source

From a 1938 homily:

"Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we [Christians] are all Semites." (pg. 53, Marchione, Margherita (1997). Yours Is a Precious Witness: Memoirs of Jews and Catholics in Wartime Italy. Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press. pp. 272 pages. ISBN 0-8091-0485-7).

 

[kochman]

Don't tell me Christians don't have a vested interest in demonstrating that Hitler wasn't Christian.

Oh, so, it's all a conspiracy. Ok.
Lot's of groups demonstrate slander and liable are false when they are being attacked by it... it's pretty normal and expected actually.

You realize, of course, that there's quite a degree of controversy on his discussion of religion in that book?

Yes, but it is pretty clear... not a fan of the old Christianity...

What?

By your logic, Hitler was a Christian... despite being outwardly anti-Christianity. You exhibit outward anti-Christianity as well... I was just asking if the same conclusion should be reached.

 

[LightSpectra]

Don't tell me Christians don't have a vested interest in demonstrating that Hitler wasn't Christian.

Don't tell me anti-Christians have a vested interest in saying that he was a Christian.

We can play all day this game of accusations of bias. But the facts speak for themselves. Hitler was no Christian except when he invoked a tiny amount of Christian themes and imagery in his public speeches and marketed books. Almost nothing he did was in accords with the moral precepts of Christianity. Nothing he did indicated that he truly believed in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

 

[Crezth]

Not because they were Germans. But he persecuted Christians because their Christianity contradicted what he demanded of them, which was state totalitarianism.

I'd like to see this sourced, and know the exact value of the persecution. We have seen what happened when Hitler tried to persecute people, and it's not pretty. So far as I know, there was no great elimination of the Christian population of central Europe.

He acted like a Christian? This is news to me. I know of no New Testament verse or Church Father which advocated war of conquest, genocide or self-worship.

What of the Old Testament? I admit I'm moving goalposts here, but you said so yourself the only metric that matters is a belief in Jesus as the Son of God.

As for why he publicly invoked Christian imagery while contradicting their meaning in every way possible, it's for the same reason every politician does. It looks good on your resume. He didn't fool very many faithful Christians though, as shown by the Weiss Rose movement, Cardinal Galen, Mit brennender Sorge, etc. There's also the fact that the only time Hitler was ever openly booed, it was while speaking to a Bavarian Catholic audience.

Fair point, and yet there were many Christians - Protestants and Catholics - who were on board with him to the bitter end.

I like how you call it revisionism though. Couldn't tell you what people knew of Hitler in the '30s and '40s, but if the common belief was revised, then I applaud the progression of awareness of factual knowledge.

From a perspective speaking in the '30s and '40s, you had no reason to believe Hitler wasn't Christian. At least no more than you had to believe that, say, Winston Churchill wasn't Christian.

Are you sure about that?

There was cooperation and conflict, to be sure. Much more conflict than cooperation due to Hitler's desire to eliminate the Catholics as a political enemy.

There is no evidence that he believed in the Son of God Jesus Christ, whilst he said and did thousands of things that demonstrated the contrary. He was not a Christian. End of argument.

No, you must demonstrate conclusively that he did not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. You cannot simply handwave it away by pointing out that he was a horrible man. Indeed, he was. But there are many, many horrible men who profess belief in Christ, and some of them are even clergymen.

 

[kochman]

So far as I know, there was no great elimination of the Christian population of central Europe.

Who would he be in charge of if he did that? No sense was being made here... think these things out, please.

There was cooperation and conflict, to be sure. Much more conflict than cooperation due to Hitler's desire to eliminate the Catholics as a political enemy.

You are now, officially, making no sense... again.
He was such a Christian that he wanted to elimate the Catholics... though he was, if a Christian (which he clearly wasn't), of the Catholic branch.

No, you must demonstrate conclusively that he did not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

Who died and made you fuehrer?
Look, it's already a known and demonstrated fact that Hitler wasn't a Christian, I'm really not sure why you are pushing this so hard... other than your anti-Christian agenda.

Anyhow, let's drop this conversation that I know for a fact we've had with you several times on this site... it's clear you won't accept anything other than your own opinion on this one.

Back on the topic at hand... Crazy Floridians and raging a-hole-ism.

 

[LightSpectra]

I'd like to see this sourced, and know the exact value of the persecution. We have seen what happened when Hitler tried to persecute people, and it's not pretty. So far as I know, there was no great elimination of the Christian population of central Europe.

Look up Kirchenkampf, Weiss Rose, Clemens Cardinal von Galen, Karl Leisner, St. Maximillian Kolbe, Cardinal Bernhard Lichtenberg; I can name more if you want.

Once the war was over it was Hitler's intention to "root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches." (Source: Alan Bullock, Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, 1991. New York: Harper Collins, p. 219.)

In The Gentile Holocaust (2008) by Thomas Craughwell, he estimates over 20% of all Polish clergy was killed at Dachau concentration camp.

What of the Old Testament? I admit I'm moving goalposts here, but you said so yourself the only metric that matters is a belief in Jesus as the Son of God.

You can be a Christian and disbelieve in the Hebrew Bible, albeit it would be erroneous to do so.

Fair point, and yet there were many Christians - Protestants and Catholics - who were on board with him to the bitter end.

I've talked about how describing those people as Christians is fallacious on the history board here.

From a perspective speaking in the '30s and '40s, you had no reason to believe Hitler wasn't Christian. At least no more than you had to believe that, say, Winston Churchill wasn't Christian.

Good reason why perhaps some Christians voted for him. But now we know for a fact that he wasn't.

No, you must demonstrate conclusively that he did not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. You cannot simply handwave it away by pointing out that he was a horrible man. Indeed, he was. But there are many, many horrible men who profess belief in Christ, and some of them are even clergymen.

On whether Hitler was a Christian: "Emphatically not, if we consider Christianity in its traditional or orthodox form: Jesus as the son of God, dying for the redemption of the sins of all humankind. It is a nonsense to state that Hitler (or any of the Nazis) adhered to Christianity of this form." (Source: Samuel Koehne, Hitler's faith: The debate over Nazism and religion, ABC Religion and Ethics, 18 Apr. 2012.)

Now it's time for you to cite some sources. Not from anti-Christian polemic authors, and not from anybody that solely quotes Mein Kempf to demonstrate Hitler's beliefs.

 

[Borachio]

Hitler's vision was of a world where he was worshiped and Christians were wiped out once he showed them a strong god to supplant ours.

Ah yes Positive Christianity rings a bell. Still, it doesn't substantiate the bolded claim above. Though I suppose it depends what you mean by worship. Certainly he seems to have wanted adulation. Is that all you mean?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Counting them all as Christians is a fallacy of definitions and statistics, as described here.

I never tried "counting them all as Christians", now did I?

Name one credible historian that says that Hitler was a Christian white supremacist. Just one. I'll wait here happily.

Again, I never stated anything of the sort.

Do you have difficulty addressing what I posted instead of these absurd strawmen you concocted?

But don't you think it is time to stop the obviously revisionist history which continues to try to separate Christianity from the Nazis and the Fascists in WWII Europe? It is quite clear that many "Christian white supremacists" did support this treatment of Jews and others as sub-humans, both in Europe and even the US. That the RCC did little or nothing to stop the rampant antisemitism so pervasive in Europe and most other Christian countries until the 60s. That instead they continued to blame Jews for killing Jesus, both directly through Passion Plays and indirectly through other means, which led to so many pogroms and even the Holocaust.

Incessantly trying to direct these threads to solely discuss Hitler and his religious beliefs, or even lack thereof, is disingenuous at best.

 

[LightSpectra]

Ah yes Positive Christianity rings a bell. Still, it doesn't substantiate the bolded claim above. Though I suppose it depends what you mean by worship. Certainly he seems to have wanted adulation. Is that all you mean?

Yes, sorry if that was unclear.

I never tried "counting them all as Christians", now did I?

So how do you know how many Christians supported the Nazis/fascists?

Again, I never stated anything of the sort.

Do you have difficulty addressing what I posted instead of these absurd strawmen you concocted?

But don't you think it is time to stop the obviously revisionist history which continues to try to separate Christianity from the Nazis and the Fascists in WWII Europe? It is quite clear that many "Christian white supremacists" did support this treatment of Jews and others as sub-humans, both in Europe and even the US. That the RCC did little or nothing to stop the rampant antisemitism so pervasive in Europe and most other Christian countries until the 60s. That instead they continued to blame Jews for killing Jesus, both directly through Passion Plays and indirectly through other means, which led to so many pogroms and even the Holocaust.

Oh, moving the goal posts are we? You originally said that the Catholic Church didn't distance itself from antisemitism until the 1960s. After providing two sources which demonstrably prove this false, you're now claiming that they did "little or nothing to stop" antisemitism (as if the episcopacy wields magic rods that will strike down an antisemite in his tracks if he tries to harass Jews, and are guilty of not using it). I showed you a Papal homily read in every German Catholic Church that did everything permitted to denounce racialism, antisemitism and totalitarianism, and I've listed numerous Catholics persecuted for defending their Church from the Nazis and Fascists. And I showed you words from the Pope's own mouth there he calls antisemitism intolerable. And from this you're claiming that the Catholic Church's Passion Plays lead to the Holocaust.

I've read exactly one Passion Play text in my life that even mildly implied that modern day Jews inherited the guilt for the death of Jesus, and that was from the middle ages; centuries prior to what we're talking about.

How sad and distorted your worldview is, where contrary facts only amplify your bigotry and the wildness of your claims.

Maybe you should start blaming individual human beings for sins rather than Christianity. Unless you're about to tell me that Chairman Mao and Stalin were also Christians.

Incessantly trying to direct these threads to solely discuss Hitler and his religious beliefs, or even lack thereof, is disingenuous at best.

I wonder how disingenuous it is to ignore evidence given to you that the Catholic Church did almost everything in its power to resist totalitarianism prior to World War II, and then immediately claim that we caused the Holocaust.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Hitler was indeed not a Christian (he was a theist of some sort, though, and despised atheism).
Let's talk about Russian Black Hundreds instead; here we have unambiguously Christian murderous anti-semites, with Saints of the Russian Orthodox Church like St. John of Kronstadt and Nicholas II Romanov being sympathetic to them.

Their violence was more sporadic and they never actually captured sole state power, though.

 

[LightSpectra]

Not once has it been made clear to me how pointing out the sins of Christians (*actual Christians, not Hitler, who was, as demonstrated, not) is somehow proof that Christianity is immoral or false. Actually, it's a pretty unanimous claim across most churches and denominations that all Christians are sinners, so it doesn't say much either way.

 

[WindFish]

, not Hitler, who was, as demonstrated, not)

Prove it

 

[Rashiminos]

How so? He says in Mein Kampf that he is [paraphrased] "doing the Lord's work."

Hitler was an occultist if you want to go there...

 

[LightSpectra]

Prove it

see post #87

 

[LightSpectra]

am I the only one that's kind of overwhelmed by the double standard in this thread?

A handful of public statements by the most infamous demagogue and backstabber in history is proof that he's a Christian and I need to provide rock solid evidence that he's not.

Where's the rock-solid evidence that the inhumane bastards in the OP are Christians? Because they flout a few Biblical passages and talk about God? Pfft, meaningless. I want to see scans of their baptismal certificates, signed and notarized statements of their credence to Jesus Christ the Son of God, and corresponding New Testament/Church Father statements that justify what they're doing through apostolic authority.

I'll be waiting.

 

[WindFish]

see post #87

All that proves is that Hilter was out to end the Catholic heresy.

 

[WindFish]

am I the only one that's kind of overwhelmed by the double standard in this thread?

A handful of public statements by the most infamous demagogue and backstabber in history is proof that he's a Christian and I need to provide rock solid evidence that he's not.

He said he was a Christian so yeah, that is proof he is one

Where's the rock-solid evidence that the inhumane bastards in the OP are Christians? Because they flout a few Biblical passages and talk about God? Pfft, meaningless. I want to see scans of their baptismal certificates, signed and notarized statements of their credence to Jesus Christ the Son of God, and corresponding New Testament/Church Father statements that justify what they're doing through apostolic authority.

I'll be waiting.

They say they are Christian, that is proof they are one.

 

[LightSpectra]

All that proves is that Hilter was out to end the Catholic heresy.

Leaving aside what's probably a really stupid understanding of what "Catholic" and "heresy" mean: "It is a nonsense to state that Hitler (or any of the Nazis) adhered to Christianity of this form." Not definitive enough?

He said he was a Christian so yeah, that is proof he is one

He actually frequently said he wasn't a Christian, too. I wonder what that means? Surely it can't mean that the most infamous demagogue and backstabber in history wasn't 100% honest and truthful every moment of his life?

 

[Rashiminos]

He said he was a Christian so yeah, that is proof he is one



They say they are Christian, that is proof they are one.

a) The person in question is a confirmed liar.

b) Thule Society.

c) Please stop typing if you don't have any clue what you're typing about.