China goes to space

[uppi]

Free floating telescopes needed for exoplanet imaging will have to fly in very precise formations (we're talking nanometres precise) and be permanently shielded from the Sun to remain cool enough to be able to function. Turning them "in any direction" will be hard to say at least.

The challenges of Interferometric stability are pretty much the same, whether you are on a planet/moon or in space. And in space you can make much larger arms for the interferometer. There is a reason that the next gravitational wave detector (where interferometric precision is crucial) is supposed to be built in space.

Anyway, the arguments you make are for a permanent, self-sufficient colonization of the moon. And we could argue whether making everything automated wouldn't be the better option. But that's quite different from the touch-and-go missions the Chinese are planning right now.

Edit: And I would like to know, how infrared interferometry is supposed to help detecting extra-solar planets. I don't see how thermal star-light can have enough coherence length to do that.

 

[Leoreth]

So China is that far behind the US in Technology? Even Russia is more advanced.

You act is if there's a technology level a nation is at, and if you can't do something another can you're automatically less advanced overall.

Also, neither Russia nor the US have the technology to go to the moon either, at the moment.

 

[Winner]

The challenges of Interferometric stability are pretty much the same, whether you are on a planet/moon or in space. And in space you can make much larger arms for the interferometer. There is a reason that the next gravitational wave detector (where interferometric precision is crucial) is supposed to be built in space.

Having a stable platform on which the individual telescopes are mounted is an advantage. Free floating formations need to permanently adjust their induvudual parts positions, and it's really questionable whether we even have the technology to build them at all.

Anyway, the arguments you make are for a permanent, self-sufficient colonization of the moon. And we could argue whether making everything automated wouldn't be the better option. But that's quite different from the touch-and-go missions the Chinese are planning right now.

First, making everything automated is impossible and will remain so for a veeeery long time.
Second, you know what the Chinese are planning? How? Do you have a reliable source in the politburo?

Edit: And I would like to know, how infrared interferometry is supposed to help detecting extra-solar planets. I don't see how thermal star-light can have enough coherence length to do that.

Ask the people who came up with this concept.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Building up expertise in space flight will do the Chinese a lot of good, and it may be a benefit to the world if they are able to make their own breakthroughs. Long-term benefits of space-flight are potentially immense, esp. if there is a technological jump somewhere and especially (for military and other reasons) if the Chinese can outpace the US in satelitte technology. Western democracies usually can't see past their own nose, but the Chinese are long termists and value more than just instant short-termist gratification.

 

[Winner]

Also, neither Russia nor the US have the technology to go to the moon either, at the moment.

Of course they do. They just don't have the actual capability to do that right now.

Germany, or even the Czech Republic for that matter, have the knowledge and the basic industrial infrastructure necessary to build nuclear weapons. It would cost a lot of money and take a lot of time, but if either of our governments decided that it was what we needed, we'd have them in, say, a decade.

It's similar with landing on the Moon. We know perfectly well how to do it. It would take some time to polish a new mission architecture, build the hardware, train the astronauts, and do the other things, but it's absolutely within our ability to do it in less than a decade should sufficient funding and political support be provided.

It wasn't like that in the 1960s at all. Back then NASA was given this goal before it had even sent a man to orbit, and nobody knew for sure it was even possible for a human being to survive the trip. Heck, the computers on Apollo spacecraft would be laughable in comparison with even the oldest mobile phones that are still in use. And they still did it, because they had the courage to try. I wish people just stopped for a moment and thought about how it reflects on our generation.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Agree that there's the technology. But I don't think the US has the capacity any more. They just cannot do it, just like they could not replicate something like the Hoover Dam or even rebuild the World Trade Center in a way that was more impressive than the originals.

The national focus is lost, the government neutered, and the population obese and only interested in television. I doubt even something amazing, like the discovery of ET life, could cause them to regain the ability to go to the Moon. At least, not within a generation.

You're not American, are you? Cause this is the exact image the media loves to make America into. We still have all of the above, the government is not neutered, the populace isn't obese and only interested in television, and we still have drive to do amazing things. What we lack, is purpose. Putting another man on the moon, we have no use for that. Not when we can just as easily send a probe to do the same exact job for much longer, and save a couple billion dollars in the process.

And hell, that's exactly what we're doing. Just a day or two ago one of two of our satellites made it to the moon in order to study it's internal structure. Something I doubt you can accomplish by having a couple guys go up there and play golf.

 

[Traitorfish]

Because I don't really like them all that much. And if they screw themselves badly enough, they may be forced to reform and allow more freedom to their people.

Is their some historic correlation between "screwing yourself" and "freedom" that I'm not familiar with?

It wasn't like that in the 1960s at all. Back then NASA was given this goal before it had even sent a man to orbit, and nobody knew for sure it was even possible for a human being to survive the trip. Heck, the computers on Apollo spacecraft would be laughable in comparison with even the oldest mobile phones that are still in use. And they still did it, because they had the courage to try. I wish people just stopped for a moment and thought about how it reflects on our generation.

That we're not insane enough to spend billions of dollars shooting people into space inside missiles piloted by GameBoys? Is that an image that we should be sorry to have?

 

[Pangur Bán]

That we're not insane enough to spend billions of dollars shooting people into space inside missiles piloted by GameBoys? Is that an image that we should be sorry to have?

Part of being human is about taking risks. All those dudes back in the day who tasted those unknown berries and whose sacrifice warned others. Those other guys who sailed over the wrong sea and never returned. Mel said it best: "Fight, and you may die. Run, and you'll live -- at least a while.And dying in your beds, many years from now ...".

And there is no shortage of men in any society willing to gamble for the glory successful risk-taking brings. All the waste-of-time risk "sports" around now show that. It is just misdirected.

 

[Traitorfish]

If you're suggesting that we should start making professional athletes eat mysterious berries, then: yes, I am with you on this one.

 

[Cutlass]

Is their some historic correlation between "screwing yourself" and "freedom" that I'm not familiar with?

There seems to be some relationship between screwing up the government bad enough, and that government falling. That may or may not result in more freedom. However, in the Chinese situation, with its growing education and middle class and entrepreneurs and knowledge of the world, I have some hope that the end of the current government would give rise to some people who have more of a desire for freedom.

 

[Princeps]

the title should be more internet-correct: "China can into space"

 

[Pangur Bán]

If you're suggesting that we should start making professional athletes eat mysterious berries, then: yes, I am with you on this one.

Haha. In all reality though those guys eating the berries were probably weak and socially isolated members on the verge of been designated "witch" (or, in modern parlance, "not real") or captured slaves ... in essence, something less noble was probaly involved.

There seems to be some relationship between screwing up the government bad enough, and that government falling. That may or may not result in more freedom. However, in the Chinese situation, with its growing education and middle class and entrepreneurs and knowledge of the world, I have some hope that the end of the current government would give rise to some people who have more of a desire for freedom.

Educated Chinese see the US concept of "freedom" as incoherent nonsense ... which of course it is to anyone not indocrinated in that discourse.

 

[Traitorfish]

There seems to be some relationship between screwing up the government bad enough, and that government falling. That may or may not result in more freedom. However, in the Chinese situation, with its growing education and middle class and entrepreneurs and knowledge of the world, I have some hope that the end of the current government would give rise to some people who have more of a desire for freedom.

In that case, is their some historic correlation between "middle class and entrepreneurs" and "freedom" that I'm not familiar with?

 

[Winner]

That we're not insane enough to spend billions of dollars shooting people into space inside missiles piloted by GameBoys? Is that an image that we should be sorry to have?

That the height of our achievement today is... I don't know, I can't even think of anything great our civilization has achieved in the last 20 years. Nothing really stands out as much as sending people to the Moon.

 

[Cutlass]

In that case, is their some historic correlation between "middle class and entrepreneurs" and "freedom" that I'm not familiar with?

I'm not saying they want to turn China into some copy of the US. But I do think they would move in the direction of more individual liberty. Or at least some portions of their population would if given the chance.

 

[RedRalph]

That the height of our achievement today is... I don't know, I can't even think of anything great our civilization has achieved in the last 20 years. Nothing really stands out as much as sending people to the Moon.

Come on... the net?

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not saying they want to turn China into some copy of the US. But I do think they would move in the direction of more individual liberty. Or at least some portions of their population would if given the chance.

Like Singapore, you mean?

 

[RedRalph]

I'm not saying they want to turn China into some copy of the US. But I do think they would move in the direction of more individual liberty. Or at least some portions of their population would if given the chance.

To be fair 'some portions' of any country would want anything. It's not really relevant. There is no indication that the Chinese population want a western political system at all. Saying "well they will eventually, or at least some of them will" strikes me as sort of arrogant (I don't think you are in general, but it's an arrogant view).

 

[Cutlass]

To be fair 'some portions' of any country would want anything. It's not really relevant. There is no indication that the Chinese population want a western political system at all. Saying "well they will eventually, or at least some of them will" strikes me as sort of arrogant (I don't think you are in general, but it's an arrogant view).

But I didn't say they would get a Western system. There's plenty of room to get more individual rights without becoming a Western country. It may well remain below what I would choose. But it would be preferable, to me anyways, to what they have now.

 

[Crezth]

Moon's most precious resource is water near the poles. This water can literally turn the Moon into a forward base in space, a re-fuelling station, and a jumping off point for missions to the rest of the Solar System. He who controls it will have an advantage over the others.

I think it's worth pointing out that, if your goal is long-term colonization of deep space, going to the moon is absolutely 100% economical.

The technology of space travel et al isn't going to be developed otherwise, you can't really do this stuff "in theory" by staying on the Earth and playing with bottle rockets. You need to actually do it and put it into practice.

So, I mean, I applaud China's initiative. Whatever reasons there may be, it'll inspire an entire generation of Chinese engineers to take the next big steps boldly into the future. And in China, that means millions of engineers.