China

[Legen]

Well, the Vanilla version of the Paper Maker only provides a gold advantage, not a science advantage. If the Paper Maker was changed to a science-oriented building and it's causing problems to differentiate China from Korea, maybe the UB should change its focus again (not necessarily to gold).

About Korea, the value of bonus science can be adjusted to not end as a nerf. Personally, I think the extra GP rate on Korea feels wrong because it makes Sejong reach similar rates of Great Scientist as Babylon, while also producing all other types of GP. I'd prefer to see more differentiation between these two science civs. But this is for another thread.

 

[tu_79]

I just can't see China as a tall civ. It is large, populated, stoic. Not excessively peaceful, but stable. Shinning in early Middle Ages. Her people are hard workers.

EDIT. India is also large and populated, but they are more religious. None of them need a focus on science, because just being populated gives enough bump. India gets its happiness through religion, China could get it through being well developed. Rome has already a focus on wide and production, while having golden ages and leadership supremacy. China can have a focus on wide and production, while being populated and avoiding unhappiness.

I think there is no civ with that role yet.

EDIT2. Well, yes, USA. It now can go wide and have better production, but she does it via tile purchases.

Suggestion.
UA: New born pop yields +10 production, scaling. During WLTED city yields are increased +10%.
UB: +2 science, +1 culture. Halves city unhappiness.

 

[ishmael_]

I like the interaction between great people and wlted, I feel it promotes one to think in which cities the great people should be born and what GPs should be born where (to maximize their number and to spread their births out). That is quite an unique approach. I don't play Korea, so I won't offer my views but I can see it being a problem if these two civs really are that similar.

I also have a question/request. Would it be cost efficient to create an option to halt great person spawning, similar to stopping citizen births? In my last China game I overshot the wlted-count in my capital. If I remember correctly I had 300+ turns of it remaining when I ended the game (prematurely, but a lot less than 300 turns to go) - meaning a lot of the turns of wlted awarded by GP births went to 'waste' and my other cities got less GP births as a result. I ask in this thread since I think no other civ than china would use the feature.

 

[Legen]

I just can't see China as a tall civ. It is large, populated, stoic. Not excessively peaceful, but stable. Shinning in early Middle Ages. Her people are hard workers.

EDIT. India is also large and populated, but they are more religious. None of them need a focus on science, because just being populated gives enough bump. India gets its happiness through religion, China could get it through being well developed. Rome has already a focus on wide and production, while having golden ages and leadership supremacy. China can have a focus on wide and production, while being populated and avoiding unhappiness.

I think there is no civ with that role yet.

EDIT2. Well, yes, USA. It now can go wide and have better production, but she does it via tile purchases.

Suggestion.
UA: New born pop yields +10 production, scaling. During WLTED city yields are increased +10%.
UB: +2 science, +1 culture. Halves city unhappiness.

Just take note that Brazil is built around happiness: its unique WLTKD (Carnaval) reduces unhappiness needs in cities by 50%, the UI grants a unique luxury and the first part of the UA can be translated as "Each point of Happiness also provides 0.5 gold and 0.25 tourism per turn". The civ was also reworked to support a wide playstyle, and has many synergies with Progress. Replace "production" for "gold", which acts similarly, and Brazil will only lack the "populated" part.

Indonesia has a similar focus with its bonus luxuries, one of which has a +5 Happiness monopoly, another has a +3 one, and the third one is a +20% growth in all cities.

These two civs actually work well with the focus you're trying to give, each aspect to varying degrees.

Now about the Paper Maker, why was it refocused around science? If it was to capture the science edge that China had in the past, it could as well give a large amount of science when built, similar to how the Circus does for culture, and be free to provide some other focus fitting to the civ. Great People, production, yields on birth, whatever China players consider appropriate. The early lump of science might be enough to address CrazyG's complaint about the lack of an early game.

 

[Gazebo]

Pulled out my old research notebook and found my second UA idea for China. We're going to try this, I think it'll be interesting:

+25% Yields from Great Person Improvements during "We Love the Empress Day" in a City. The creation of Great Works begins "We Love the Empress Day" in all Cities. Duration scales with the number of owned Cities.

 

[tu_79]

I suppose I see China very close to what Brazil is right now. But with higher population and wider. So perhaps she doesn't need many more bonuses, or bonuses around WLTED. The idea is not to have a very happy China, but a very populated and wide one and not unhappy for it. And make it different from India and Brazil. Perhaps with a science focus she will still be different of Korea and Babylon.

 

[CrazyG]

Now about the Paper Maker, why was it refocused around science? If it was to capture the science edge that China had in the past, it could as well give a large amount of science when built, similar to how the Circus does for culture, and be free to provide some other focus fitting to the civ. Great People, production, yields on birth, whatever China players consider appropriate. The early lump of science might be enough to address CrazyG's complaint about the lack of an early game.

It would certainly help the early game. I do think China needs to either not be science focused, or not be great person focused, because that is Korea's thing and Korea does it really well. I find Korea plays a lot more similar to China than to Babylon. Babylon doesn't have to pick tradition or focus its economy on specialists so I find him really different than Korea (IDK why people always compare them). So we can change the UA or the papermaker. I would say that the papermaker is among the most boring of UBs, looking through all of the UBs I see that very few are just a better version of the base building. The majority provide something pretty unrelated. If it gave produciton on citizen birth and was available at an earlier tech it would address a lot challenges for China. I actually think China's UA is among the weakest in the game so it needs a good UB.

I also have a question/request. Would it be cost efficient to create an option to halt great person spawning, similar to stopping citizen births?

I wouldn't want to delay that great person too much because I usually want his benefits as soon as possible. If my capital and another city were both about to produce the same GP I could understand wanting him born in the other city first, but you can do this by unworking the specialists in the capital.

Keep in mind that points are accumulated by city, so you want your capital to birth that person eventually or you just waste all those points. In theory you spread your great people out and balance your WLTED bonuses but in practice I don't think the benefits are enough.

EDIT- G's new idea looks interesting. I don't think +25% on GP tiles alone would be enough though, are you also having the growth benefit?

 

[tu_79]

Pulled out my old research notebook and found my second UA idea for China. We're going to try this, I think it'll be interesting:

+25% Yields from Great Person Improvements during "We Love the Empress Day" in a City. The creation of Great Works begins "We Love the Empress Day" in all Cities. Duration scales with the number of owned Cities.

What a balancing nightmare!

 

[Gazebo]

EDIT- G's new idea looks interesting. I don't think +25% on GP tiles alone would be enough though, are you also having the growth benefit?

No, no added growth. 25% of all yields on the tile is pretty strong, however.

What a balancing nightmare!

Eh?

 

[CrazyG]

What a balancing nightmare!

I'm guessing he will cap the length. Infinite WLTED isn't even that strong unless you invest a lot into it. I think the scaling with city number is to give a reason to go wider (since the GP tiles really encourages tradition).

No, no added growth. 25% of all yields on the tile is pretty strong, however.

I suspect that +25% on GP tiles isn't quite enough for a UA by itself. China is known for having a lot of people and I do like them having extra growth thematically. But I'll happily try the version you have in mind before speculating on balance too much.

BTW I think the great work is a really good choice to initiate the WLTED. It fixes the capital having 300 turns, and its distinct from other civs. Also doesn't force policy choices. Will building the Parthenon activate the UA?

 

[Legen]

It would certainly help the early game. I do think China needs to either not be science focused, or not be great person focused, because that is Korea's thing and Korea does it really well. I find Korea plays a lot more similar to China than to Babylon. Babylon doesn't have to pick tradition or focus its economy on specialists so I find him really different than Korea (IDK why people always compare them). So we can change the UA or the papermaker. I would say that the papermaker is among the most boring of UBs, looking through all of the UBs I see that very few are just a better version of the base building. The majority provide something pretty unrelated. If it gave produciton on citizen birth and was available at an earlier tech it would address a lot challenges for China. I actually think China's UA is among the weakest in the game so it needs a good UB.

The thing about Korea's focus on GP is that it wasn't always like that, the bonus GP on golden ages was originally from (pre-rework) Brazil. So, the difference on how Korea and Babylon produced their bonus science was clearer. When Brazil's former bonus on GAs moved to Korea, it could achieve +70% GS rate and permanent GAs was easier, so Babylon's GS edge didn't felt that iconic anymore. Also remember that both are said to be the main competitors for the fastest science victory in the base game, so it's natural to compare both.

So, when you say you'd want to see China differentiate from Korea by not stepping into Sejong's extra GP, it comes to me that not just Korea stepped into Babylon's GS focus before, Korea might actually be the one stepping into the Great Person focus that the (current) chinese UA demands.

No, no added growth. 25% of all yields on the tile is pretty strong, however.

Rounded up or down?

Also, it competes with Korea's unconditional +2 from great person tile improvements, at least in the early game. Not sure yet how strong the new UA will be.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm guessing he will cap the length. Infinite WLTED isn't even that strong unless you invest a lot into it. I think the scaling with city number is to give a reason to go wider (since the GP tiles really encourages tradition).


I suspect that +25% on GP tiles isn't quite enough for a UA by itself. China is known for having a lot of people and I do like them having extra growth thematically. But I'll happily try the version you have in mind before speculating on balance too much.

BTW I think the great work is a really good choice to initiate the WLTED. It fixes the capital having 300 turns, and its distinct from other civs. Also doesn't force policy choices. Will building the Parthenon activate the UA?

We'll try it alongside a 25% boost to Growth.

Yes, Parthenon will trigger it. Any Great Work creation (archaeology, etc.) will do it. Not trading GWs, though.

The thing about Korea's focus on GP is that it wasn't always like that, the bonus GP on golden ages was originally from (pre-rework) Brazil. So, the difference on how Korea and Babylon produced their bonus science was clearer. When Brazil's former bonus on GAs moved to Korea, it could achieve +70% GS rate and permanent GAs was easier, so Babylon's GS edge didn't felt that iconic anymore. Also remember that both are said to be the main competitors for the fastest science victory in the base game, so it's natural to compare both.

Rounded up or down?

Also, it competes with Korea's unconditional +2 from great person tile improvements, at least in the early game. Not sure yet how strong the new UA will be.

Down, not up. C++ abhors an up.
It does conflict a little with Korea, but some amount of overlap is inevitable. Besides, Korea's does not scale (as you note) and does not give the benefit of all tile yields.

G

 

[Funak]

Honestly think the Chinese UA can stay the way it currently is (it isn't that similar to the Indian one after all) but at that point one would have to almost completely overhaul the Paper Maker

Another solution would be keeping the growth part of the UA, removing the part where you get free WLTKD from born GP (which would slightly de-link the civ from tradition) and add another bonus instead. At that point one could motivate a unique building that either triggers WLTKDs or just extending their duration.


I'm not exactly that hot towards the great works idea, it seems kinda weird and it doesn't really change the tradition-focus (only really adds a required Aesthetics-focus)

 

[tu_79]

I mean, when I go wide, I barely can work specialists, so just a few great people, or invest faith to purchase. When going tall, the cities only work a few tiles, as most workers are in specialist slots. Many times I had to leave Holy Sites unworked. This can give reasons to balance our workers between specialists and great tile improvements, but I imagine that this won't make the cities too populous. +25% means that yields below 3 won't yield anything extra. So it will yield 1 food here, 1 hammer there.
Sorry, but I don't like it.

 

[CrazyG]

The thing about Korea's focus on GP is that it wasn't always like that, the bonus GP on golden ages was originally from (pre-rework) Brazil. So, the difference on how Korea and Babylon produced their bonus science was clearer. When Brazil's former bonus on GAs moved to Korea, it could achieve +70% GS rate and permanent GAs was easier, so Babylon's GS edge didn't felt that iconic anymore. Also remember that both are said to be the main competitors for the fastest science victory in the base game, so it's natural to compare both.

So, when you say you'd want to see China differentiate from Korea by not stepping into Sejong's extra GP, it comes to me that not just Korea stepped into Babylon's GS focus before, Korea might actually be the one stepping into the Great Person focus that the (current) chinese UA demands.

Fair point. I didn't really play Korea much until that GP rate got added.

I'm not exactly that hot towards the great works idea, it seems kinda weird and it doesn't really change the tradition-focus (only really adds a required Aesthetics-focus)

Progress gets a free great work, and Piety can get a great work from its artist. It scales per city number, so if its 5 per city you can get 50 turns for having 10 cities, you won't need that many great works.

I think the GP tile thing really forces tradition though, but maybe not because if it rounds down its going to be effectively much less than +25% especially early on (I think this effect is going to be rather small).

 

[Gazebo]

Honestly think the Chinese UA can stay the way it currently is (it isn't that similar to the Indian one after all) but at that point one would have to almost completely overhaul the Paper Maker

Another solution would be keeping the growth part of the UA, removing the part where you get free WLTKD from born GP (which would slightly de-link the civ from tradition) and add another bonus instead. At that point one could motivate a unique building that either triggers WLTKDs or just extending their duration.


I'm not exactly that hot towards the great works idea, it seems kinda weird and it doesn't really change the tradition-focus (only really adds a required Aesthetics-focus)

To be honest, I've never been satisfied with the WLTED element for China's UA, as it was so easy to trigger that the bonus had to be relatively low-impact (lest it simply be a permanent UA bonus). With this change, I can make the bonus more powerful without having '300 turn' WLTED events. This is doubly problematic given that growth is simply not as useful anymore.

I mean, when I go wide, I barely can work specialists, so just a few great people, or invest faith to purchase. When going tall, the cities only work a few tiles, as most workers are in specialist slots. Many times I had to leave Holy Sites unworked. This can give reasons to balance our workers between specialists and great tile improvements, but I imagine that this won't make the cities too populous. +25% means that yields below 3 won't yield anything extra. So it will yield 1 food here, 1 hammer there.
Sorry, but I don't like it.

More growth = more specialists = faster WLTEDs. More expansion = longer WLTED periods in all cities. So China benefits from going wide and/or going tall.

G

 

[Funak]

To be honest, I've never been satisfied with the WLTED element for China's UA, as it was so easy to trigger that the bonus had to be relatively low-impact (lest it simply be a permanent UA bonus). With this change, I can make the bonus more powerful without having '300 turn' WLTED events. This is doubly problematic given that growth is simply not as useful anymore.

Do you mean WLTKD over all or the WLTKD triggered from birthed great people?

 

[Gazebo]

Do you mean WLTKD over all or the WLTKD triggered from birthed great people?

From GPs. Most players birthed all GPs in 1-2 cities so they'd have 100s of WLTED turns in them and none elsewhere. By reducing the number of times it happens, I can increase the power of the effect (i.e. making it global) thus increasing the feeling that the UA is doing something tangible.

Also, after a first test game with the new UA, I'm bumping it to 50% yields/growth.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Also, after a first test game with the new UA, I'm bumping it to 50% yields/growth.

I suspected 25% would be too mild. Rounding down the % on GP tiles is a big deal, I would guess at 25% you actually get very few bonuses. At 50% you miss a much smaller amount of yields, but you still miss credit on odd yields, its going to be common. Tiles with 3 culture from Aesthetics immediately come to mind.

What paper maker is going to accompany this change? I would like to see the golden age synergy just dropped, and make it all about WLTED

 

[Funak]

From GPs. Most players birthed all GPs in 1-2 cities so they'd have 100s of WLTED turns in them and none elsewhere. By reducing the number of times it happens, I can increase the power of the effect (i.e. making it global) thus increasing the feeling that the UA is doing something tangible.

Completely with you there.

Still not sure about your current idea however but I'm definitely in favor of scrapping the WLTKD from birthed GPs