China

[CrazyG]

I'd like to see more respect paid to that. What about a UA that would spawn rebels every time you go into a new era or complete a policy tree, but upon beating them you get +1 pop in all cities and a random great person?

I get the Dynastic cycle theme, but it seems too far out there for me.

For defining China, I would define it as China, or in Chinese 中国. That name has been used continuously for thousands of years. Ming, Qing, Republic of China are different governments, but they aren't different civilizations. The leader Wu Zetian is from the tang dynasty, so that is likely what G intends to represent.

 

[Gazebo]

I get the Dynastic cycle theme, but it seems too far out there for me.

For defining China, I would define it as China, or in Chinese 中国. That name has been used continuously for thousands of years. Ming, Qing, Republic of China are different governments, but they aren't different civilizations. The leader Wu Zetian is from the tang dynasty, so that is likely what G intends to represent.

https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server3200/k2pame/product_images/uploaded_images/tang-advert.jpg

New UA: It's a kick in the mouth.

G

 

[tu_79]

https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server3200/k2pame/product_images/uploaded_images/tang-advert.jpg

New UA: It's a kick in the mouth.

G

Oh, my! I actually liked that.

 

[Funak]

https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server3200/k2pame/product_images/uploaded_images/tang-advert.jpg

New UA: It's a kick in the mouth.

Other than making jokes, do you have any more thoughts on this or are you just going through with your original idea?

 

[Gazebo]

Other than making jokes, do you have any more thoughts on this or are you just going through with your original idea?

I'm on to idea #3. Variation on #2.

I didn't hate yours, but instant yields are in abundance right now. New one:

Creating Great Works or gaining Cities initiates "We Love the Empress Day" in all Cities, permanently granting them +2 Food and +1 Culture. +15% Food (not Growth!) during "We Love the Empress Day."

Design: an extra +1 culture/ +2 food in your capital from the get-go gives you some development flexibility. Older cities will gain more from this UA (as the +1f/c is given only to existing cities), so rapid early expansion is key to maximizing the bonuses. China will have a potent Ancient/Classical advantage that tapers off (as the bonus yields do not scale), so you will need to transition into either a warfare kingdom or a culture kingdom after the settlement phase to continue to reap benefit from the UA.

 

[ElliotS]

Design: an extra +1 culture/ +2 food in your capital from the get-go gives you some development flexibility. Older cities will gain more from this UA (as the +1f/c is given only to existing cities), so rapid early expansion is key to maximizing the bonuses. China will have a potent Ancient/Classical advantage that tapers off (as the bonus yields do not scale), so you will need to transition into either a warfare kingdom or a culture kingdom after the settlement phase to continue to reap benefit from the UA.

That one seems cool, but have you considered giant internal rebellions? They build character.

 

[Gazebo]

That one seems cool, but have you considered giant internal rebellions? They build character.

Dynastic upheaval is important to Chinese history, but I'd hardly call it a unique trait. If we're going for 100% accuracy, England's would be:

"Founded or conquered cities on continents other than your home landmass declare war on you after 100 turns. They also hate you."

 

[Starrynite120]

Dynastic upheaval is important to Chinese history, but I'd hardly call it a unique trait. If we're going for 100% accuracy, England's would be:

"Founded or conquered cities on continents other than your home landmass declare war on you after 100 turns. They also hate you."

You forgot the part where they love you after 200 turns.

 

[Txurce]

Design: an extra +1 culture/ +2 food in your capital from the get-go gives you some development flexibility. Older cities will gain more from this UA (as the +1f/c is given only to existing cities), so rapid early expansion is key to maximizing the bonuses. China will have a potent Ancient/Classical advantage that tapers off (as the bonus yields do not scale), so you will need to transition into either a warfare kingdom or a culture kingdom after the settlement phase to continue to reap benefit from the UA.

I like the crossroads at which it leaves you.

 

[pandasnail]

While I'm intrigued by this UA, at least the way I'm going to play it, my core archer line units are for sure going to have Logistics before CKNs. I'm going to go conquering and I'm not holding off until Machinery to get the best ranged promotion. Even if CKNs were a column early, the coming early part would be nice, but the Logistics still less so. I do realize that this is a human problem tho, as the AI both loses more units and goes on less all out wars. Actually, as well, the AI has seemed to have gotten better at realizing attacks at Point A aren't working, and switching to an attack at Point C, which at the very least evens out my experience during the defend stage of an attack. But still, I'm going the Logistics line before the Ranged line, and if my attacks are successful, I'll have the promotion.

Now having just read the Wikipedia article, and therefore being a hardcore expert, it does seem like ability to attack more often was their whole historical deal, and giving them some weird way to get to three attacks per turn is probably too much, so idk a solution.

Also, is stealing a Great Work 'creating' in some weird technical way the same way city trading is actually city conquest?

 

[ElliotS]

While I'm intrigued by this UA, at least the way I'm going to play it, my core archer line units are for sure going to have Logistics before CKNs. I'm going to go conquering and I'm not holding off until Machinery to get the best ranged promotion. Even if CKNs were a column early, the coming early part would be nice, but the Logistics still less so. I do realize that this is a human problem tho, as the AI both loses more units and goes on less all out wars. Actually, as well, the AI has seemed to have gotten better at realizing attacks at Point A aren't working, and switching to an attack at Point C, which at the very least evens out my experience during the defend stage of an attack. But still, I'm going the Logistics line before the Ranged line, and if my attacks are successful, I'll have the promotion.

Now having just read the Wikipedia article, and therefore being a hardcore expert, it does seem like ability to attack more often was their whole historical deal, and giving them some weird way to get to three attacks per turn is probably too much, so idk a solution.

Also, is stealing a Great Work 'creating' in some weird technical way the same way city trading is actually city conquest?

Just level Siege and get +1 range on composite bowmen onwards, so you get +1 range, logistics and double attack monsters when you upgrade.

 

[pandasnail]

Just level Siege and get +1 range on composite bowmen onwards, so you get +1 range, logistics and double attack monsters when you upgrade.

Well, yeah, that's the way to get around it, but that means they'll have the worst Composites in the game as imo that side is worse. I mean, when I do go that way, I take Snipers, not Range. Maybe if I anticipate getting enough points for both Range and IF, but that extra level is a lot of points, esp with just one attack per turn.

 

[Gazebo]

While I'm intrigued by this UA, at least the way I'm going to play it, my core archer line units are for sure going to have Logistics before CKNs. I'm going to go conquering and I'm not holding off until Machinery to get the best ranged promotion. Even if CKNs were a column early, the coming early part would be nice, but the Logistics still less so. I do realize that this is a human problem tho, as the AI both loses more units and goes on less all out wars. Actually, as well, the AI has seemed to have gotten better at realizing attacks at Point A aren't working, and switching to an attack at Point C, which at the very least evens out my experience during the defend stage of an attack. But still, I'm going the Logistics line before the Ranged line, and if my attacks are successful, I'll have the promotion.

Now having just read the Wikipedia article, and therefore being a hardcore expert, it does seem like ability to attack more often was their whole historical deal, and giving them some weird way to get to three attacks per turn is probably too much, so idk a solution.

Also, is stealing a Great Work 'creating' in some weird technical way the same way city trading is actually city conquest?

No, as the work already existed. Has to be entirely new.

G

 

[Funak]

I'm on to idea #3. Variation on #2.

I didn't hate yours, but instant yields are in abundance right now. New one:



Design: an extra +1 culture/ +2 food in your capital from the get-go gives you some development flexibility. Older cities will gain more from this UA (as the +1f/c is given only to existing cities), so rapid early expansion is key to maximizing the bonuses. China will have a potent Ancient/Classical advantage that tapers off (as the bonus yields do not scale), so you will need to transition into either a warfare kingdom or a culture kingdom after the settlement phase to continue to reap benefit from the UA.

I don't hate it. But I just don't know. I really dislike boxing people into the corner and 'forcing' them to spend their GPs a specific way. I mean yeah you'd probably get away with not going tradition (although tradition is definitely the go-to option) but you can probably not get away with not going Aesthetics with this UA. Which in turn kinda forces you to go for cultural victory

 

[CrazyG]

Design: an extra +1 culture/ +2 food in your capital from the get-go gives you some development flexibility. Older cities will gain more from this UA (as the +1f/c is given only to existing cities), so rapid early expansion is key to maximizing the bonuses. China will have a potent Ancient/Classical advantage that tapers off (as the bonus yields do not scale), so you will need to transition into either a warfare kingdom or a culture kingdom after the settlement phase to continue to reap benefit from the UA.

This is really cool and very unique. I like China being strong in ancient classical era, its more fitting that being a late game civ. It might actually come back in the late game just due to sheer growth (which is sort of is happening in real life). Its a cool concept. My first thought is to try and snowball via conquest, getting 2 tang for every city I take is going to be a big deal, so I think its too early to say tradition-aesthetics is the go to. My question about great works would be if Archeologist are going to be worth too much. I like this more than the GP tile thing

I think the difference between +% food and +% growth is that food multiplies before consumption? Meaning I can potentially choose not to grow and get away with more specialists thanks to the UA providing food. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

 

[Gazebo]

This is really cool and very unique. I like China being strong in ancient classical era, its more fitting that being a late game civ. It might actually come back in the late game just due to sheer growth (which is sort of is happening in real life). Its a cool concept. My first thought is to try and snowball via conquest, getting 2 tang for every city I take is going to be a big deal., so I think its too early say tradition-aesthetics is the go to. My question about great works would be if Archeologist are going to be worth too much. I like this more than the GP tile thing

I think the difference between +% food and +% growth is that food multiplies before consumption? Meaning I can potentially choose not to grow and get away with more specialists thanks to the UA providing food. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Correct. I've lowered the testing version to +1f/+1c (+2f was snowballing a bit), but otherwise it seems pretty balanced thus far.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Isn't that going to be way too much? I mean, just for settling 10 cities you get 55 Culture and Food. Next city gives you 11C/11F, then 12C/12F, etc. That seems a bit broken to me. Get a GW after that and it's another 11C/11F total. Just this part of the UA alone seems broken, it never will taper off as you say - the advantage will only increase as the more cities you have, the more your gain is - just settle/conquer another city, you get slightly more. Then settle yet another, even more. The yields might not scale by themselves but as it is, China can always expand or get a great work, and expansion's benefits will always go up, scaling by doing so, Not only that, the UA has a few other elements as if the first thing alone wasn't enough, such as free super-WLTKDs. Old vanilla France +2C per city UA didn't scale at all and fell off, sure, but this one constantly scales and contrary to what was claimed, will never taper off. It scales better than pretty much any other UA in the game.

I dunno, it seems to me like it will be more broken than pre-nerfs Arabia about 1 or 2 years ago which IIRC got 4C/4S for each Historic Event, and almost everything was a Historic Event. China also seems like a bit braindead of an UA too, to be honest. Just settle a city and you get the best yield, Culture, and lots of Food everywhere. Wasn't getting bonuses from creating/having Great Works supposed to be the Assyrian and Egyptian unique thing, too, which is why some other civ didn't get that sort of thing in some other thread when it was proposed? I definitely remember that discussion. Considering that, this UA seems like a very weird choice.
Settling cities for benefits is also Spain's niche, and Spain has a much worse a tradeoff as it only gets a small, instant amount of Food and Faith (not for the capital), inferior yields that will almost instantly be in inferior amounts. If you want any sort of truly meaningful gain from that UA, you must conquer - which is fine, as it is fun. Here is China's another problem - just doing something you're meant to always do grants such a high reward as inevitable 55 C/55 F in classical era (if you went Tradition, it might be somewhere in the 70C/F range). Not only will the UA be nuts as it'll start very strong and only gets stronger, the Paper Maker also supposedly receives a buff.

I'm sorry, I do not like it at all. It seems like the new China is Spain, Arabia, Assyria, India and old vanilla France put in a mixer. It's going to be too strong IMHO.

My suggestion:

+2C per city. Receive a WLTED in your empire for every city and wonder acquired. Every WLTED permanently increases the Food in your city by 2-5%, up to 20-30%.

Basically, old vanilla France but way stronger. Falls off, but has a lasting impact. You do not necessarily have to construct wonders, only get one through any means, like conquering a city with them, which means it works for every difficulty.

 

[tu_79]

Design: an extra +1 culture/ +2 food in your capital from the get-go gives you some development flexibility. Older cities will gain more from this UA (as the +1f/c is given only to existing cities), so rapid early expansion is key to maximizing the bonuses. China will have a potent Ancient/Classical advantage that tapers off (as the bonus yields do not scale), so you will need to transition into either a warfare kingdom or a culture kingdom after the settlement phase to continue to reap benefit from the UA.

This is interesting. It only pushes China towards gaining more cities early on and invest on Great Works. As a result, a large, populated and influential civ. How will she manage unhappiness?
Oh, by the way, could you state both uniques, UA and UB? (not sure what the Paper Maker is doing now).

 

[Gazebo]

Wasn't getting bonuses from creating/having Great Works supposed to be the Assyrian and Egyptian unique thing, too, which is why some other civ didn't get that sort of thing in some other thread when it was proposed?

I don't think GWs are unique to any one empire. Besides, times change, and an additional civ that wants/needs Great Works to flourish isn't going to topple the cart.Wu's dynasty, the Tang dynasty, oversaw the greatest period of Chinese poetry and art - to skip over that was (and is), in my opinion, quite sad. Now we have a glimpse of that.

Settling cities for benefits is also Spain's niche, and Spain has a much worse a tradeoff as it only gets a small, instant amount of Food and Faith (not for the capital), inferior yields that will almost instantly be in inferior amounts.

It is also France's niche (conquest), and Assyria, and the Zulu, and Carthage...which is to say that settling and conquering is no one's 'niche.' It is a core gameplay mechanic. The fact that China benefits almost exclusively from overexpansion in the first 1/4 of the game (GWs are hard to come by before medieval) puts you in a tricky spot. If you, theoretically, settle 10 cities before classical (which, in my opinion, sounds like a farcical number), then not only is your infrastructure hurting, but you are overextended and your policy costs are through the roof. You can recover, but it is by no means guaranteed.

China's an expanionist snowball civ. If you don't contain the Middle Kingdom, it'll continue to expand and will dominate.

G

 

[Funak]

Still, all these complaints are valid, even if you don't agree with them.

I think the effect would be cool, but it's stepping on a lot of toes and it seems pretty damn hard to balance. Also looks like something that will work a whole lot better on larger maps compared to smaller ones, maybe even to the degree where people playing huge communitas maps might have to disable them.