China

[tu_79]

Still, all these complaints are valid, even if you don't agree with them.

I think the effect would be cool, but it's stepping on a lot of toes and it seems pretty damn hard to balance. Also looks like something that will work a whole lot better on larger maps compared to smaller ones, maybe even to the degree where people playing huge communitas maps might have to disable them.

That's easy, scale or limit based on map size.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't think GWs are unique to any one empire. Besides, times change, and an additional civ that wants/needs Great Works to flourish isn't going to topple the cart.Wu's dynasty, the Tang dynasty, oversaw the greatest period of Chinese poetry and art - to skip over that was (and is), in my opinion, quite sad. Now we have a glimpse of that.

Yeah, but that's what you said before IIRC. Though yeah, times change so it's not an important point, though greatest period of art and poetry point you sort-of defeat that point by saying that great works are not unique to any one empire. But that's not relevant.

It is also France's niche (conquest), and Assyria, and the Zulu, and Carthage...which is to say that settling and conquering is no one's 'niche.' It is a core gameplay mechanic. The fact that China benefits almost exclusively from overexpansion in the first 1/4 of the game (GWs are hard to come by before medieval) puts you in a tricky spot. If you, theoretically, settle 10 cities before classical (which, in my opinion, sounds like a farcical number), then not only is your infrastructure hurting, but you are overextended and your policy costs are through the roof. You can recover, but it is by no means guaranteed.

China's an expanionist snowball civ. If you don't contain the Middle Kingdom, it'll continue to expand and will dominate.

G

I didn't say before classical, I said classical which is pretty much always doable. It doesn't seem tricky at all, too, since the bonus Food + WLTKDs should speed up your city growth so you can work Production tiles much faster. You can always just go Authority to alleviate any flaws (lots of Production + can get through the tree very fast with tons of UA culture), though at the cost of Great Works. Policy costs "going through the roof" doesn't matter, everyone suffers the same issue to a far greater extent, it is China alone that alleviates it with the UA which means another city will always be viable Culturally, and the bonus food will allow it to work specialists/mines to get lots of Production. Another thing that combats your claim of them benefitting almost exclusively from overexpansion is the fact that China will not only grow like mad allowing you to work all the Production tiles you want, it also has an early game UB that already is decent (not top tier, but above Basilica/Mission tier UBs) which will further result in the snowball getting harsher. Everyone has this sort of a problem, but this civ would get it solved by the UA instantly. Like yeah, sure, you might start in the middle of a desert and/or with no production tiles at all or something, but in that case just imagine how hard it would be for any other civ.

This China is going to have no weaknesses whatsoever. It starts with the strongest base effect (+1F+1C +WLTKD turn 1 on capital) that by itself gives you benefits comparable or superior to what an early pantheon can grant India at this point, the effect only grows stronger with more cities and great works. No period of weakness. Every civ has one.

Sejong balls out of control with time but he starts with little to nothing, Rome's ability only matters on conquest for further cities, and even then won't compare and it requires lots of Colosseums, Spain only gets meh bursts of yields and needs to get to medieval to get its best stuff, Poland only benefits after getting XX techs, Denmark needs Sailing/Fishing, likes water maps and needs Jelling Stones everywhere, Egypt needs access to a wonder/Great Work, Maya/Babylon/etc need techs, Aztecs need kills and the UA falls off though Floating Gardens do not, Austria actually needs to be an ally for 50 billion years and have gold, even Polynesia actually needs tiles to settle their Ankh Morporks as well as time to construct them, etc.

Meanwhile, China starts with the best base effect (unless you go god of all creation as India but why) and as you expand and get GWs, the UA also remains best or one of the best. Can anything really compare with that? Sure, some UA might perhaps get very, very slightly more by renaissance, but by that time China has more policies than Poland and more pop than any other two civs put together (excl. India/Monty). I am absolutely certain it'll be broken. Snowball starting from turn 1 that only gets stronger and worse with more turns and cities as well as buffed early game UB like paper maker just cannot result in something balanced. Even without paper maker it'd be too strong.

That's easy, scale or limit based on map size.

How? Only tech/culture cost per city scales based on map size. Some civs/trees are better on bigger maps, some on smaller, none IIRC are balanced by map size/map type - making an exception just for one civ would definitely spark discussions like "nerf Progress on Huge (playing on Huge is HUGERESY if you know what I mean, I play Large or Standard myself)", "nerf Polynesia on archipelago", "nerf Iroquois/Celts on forest maps", "buff Tradition on any map size higher than standard". It's just tons of work and some will always complain as it'd be very hard to balance. How to determine if something is too much? What if you play on a Large map, but so much water spawned you actually have less workable tiles than on an average Standard sizer? Too many variables, no way to account for them. It's not game length by which everything already scales as it should.

But yeah, on Large it'd be unbearable. 20 cities is inevitable, and at that point it's 200+ Culture and Food from the cities alone. That and a game-long WLTED. However it's not a big problem because as-is, China doesn't look like it can be balanced on any setting.

 

[Gazebo]

Yeah, but that's what you said before IIRC. Though yeah, times change so it's not an important point, though greatest period of art and poetry point you sort-of defeat that point by saying that great works are not unique to any one empire. But that's not relevant.



I didn't say before classical, I said classical which is pretty much always doable. It doesn't seem tricky at all, too, since the bonus Food + WLTKDs should speed up your city growth so you can work Production tiles much faster. You can always just go Authority to alleviate any flaws (lots of Production + can get through the tree very fast with tons of UA culture), though at the cost of Great Works. Policy costs "going through the roof" doesn't matter, everyone suffers the same issue to a far greater extent, it is China alone that alleviates it with the UA which means another city will always be viable Culturally, and the bonus food will allow it to work specialists/mines to get lots of Production. Another thing that combats your claim of them benefitting almost exclusively from overexpansion is the fact that China will not only grow like mad allowing you to work all the Production tiles you want, it also has an early game UB that already is decent (not top tier, but above Basilica/Mission tier UBs) which will further result in the snowball getting harsher. Everyone has this sort of a problem, but this civ would get it solved by the UA instantly. Like yeah, sure, you might start in the middle of a desert and/or with no production tiles at all or something, but in that case just imagine how hard it would be for any other civ.

This China is going to have no weaknesses whatsoever. It starts with the strongest base effect (+1F+1C +WLTKD turn 1 on capital) that by itself gives you benefits comparable or superior to what an early pantheon can grant India at this point, the effect only grows stronger with more cities and great works. No period of weakness. Every civ has one.

Sejong balls out of control with time but he starts with little to nothing, Rome's ability only matters on conquest for further cities, and even then won't compare and it requires lots of Colosseums, Spain only gets meh bursts of yields and needs to get to medieval to get its best stuff, Poland only benefits after getting XX techs, Denmark needs Sailing/Fishing, likes water maps and needs Jelling Stones everywhere, Egypt needs access to a wonder/Great Work, Maya/Babylon/etc need techs, Aztecs need kills and the UA falls off though Floating Gardens do not, Austria actually needs to be an ally for 50 billion years and have gold, even Polynesia actually needs tiles to settle their Ankh Morporks as well as time to construct them, etc.

Meanwhile, China starts with the best base effect (unless you go god of all creation as India but why) and as you expand and get GWs, the UA also remains best or one of the best. Can anything really compare with that? Sure, some UA might perhaps get very, very slightly more by renaissance, but by that time China has more policies than Poland and more pop than any other two civs put together (excl. India/Monty). I am absolutely certain it'll be broken. Snowball starting from turn 1 that only gets stronger and worse with more turns and cities as well as buffed early game UB like paper maker just cannot result in something balanced. Even without paper maker it'd be too strong.



How? Only tech/culture cost per city scales based on map size. Some civs/trees are better on bigger maps, some on smaller, none IIRC are balanced by map size/map type - making an exception just for one civ would definitely spark discussions like "nerf Progress on Huge (playing on Huge is HUGERESY if you know what I mean, I play Large or Standard myself)", "nerf Polynesia on archipelago", "nerf Iroquois/Celts on forest maps", "buff Tradition on any map size higher than standard". It's just tons of work and some will always complain as it'd be very hard to balance. How to determine if something is too much? What if you play on a Large map, but so much water spawned you actually have less workable tiles than on an average Standard sizer? Too many variables, no way to account for them. It's not game length by which everything already scales as it should.

But yeah, on Large it'd be unbearable. 20 cities is inevitable, and at that point it's 200+ Culture and Food from the cities alone. That and a game-long WLTED. However it's not a big problem because as-is, China doesn't look like it can be balanced on any setting.

You have such little faith in me that it is almost disheartening.

G

 

[tu_79]

Also if your fears come true, yields can be lowered later.

 

[ashendashin]

If you, theoretically, settle 10 cities before classical (which, in my opinion, sounds like a farcical number), then not only is your infrastructure hurting, but you are overextended and your policy costs are through the roof.

You underestimate your religion balancing
Anyways this balance and its potential to snowball is perfectly suited to China. There's plenty of civs that can easily expand out of control and there's also a number of ways to contain them, so I look forward to seeing a strong China for the first time.

 

[Gazebo]

In spite of protestations, I've been working on tweaking and balancing the new UA this morning (snowed in). It is actually turning out really well, giving China a very unique goal. Here's the latest:

Creating Great Works or gaining Cities grants "We Love the Empress Day" and +1 Culture and Food in all Cities. These bonuses decline every Era due to dynastic transition. +15% Food during "We Love the Empress Day."

So, same concept as before, however China now stands as the only civ that doesn't want to beeline into a new era. Staying in an Era means you get to hold onto your bonuses longer. The decline is rated based on mapsize and the number of cities in your empire: bigger empires lose more at the end of every era, so beware! China now has to balance rapid expansion against the vagaries of time.

Paper Maker: Paper Maker: now grants 15% more Gold in city during WLTKD. +2 Science (was +1), Science per pop now Gold per pop.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

You have such little faith in me that it is almost disheartening.

G

Quite the contrary, I have very high Faith per turn when it comes to you as well as a very high dose of respect for your work as it is really outstanding and your attention to detail is awesome. I like pretty much everything that has to do with this mod and I really want it to prosper and get improved which is why I report bugs on github whenever I see them. It might be my writing style that makes it seem otherwise, but I like making longer responses while putting as much reasons in them as possible. Your Spain is probably the most fun I've ever had with any civ game, too. I often sound "harsh" or "unkind" (I don't know which word would be right in this situation) as I might have problems choosing the correct words with right emphasis for sentences but that's not how it was meant. I highly enjoy your work, really, and I am very pleased to see you continue it. If I didn't believe in you, I wouldn't have been here for so long, posting all around. After all, it's the only subforum I visit on civfanatics pretty much.

It's just that I can't see this China work as it is stated in that post. It'll ball too much. Sure, as with all things unreleased one can be proven wrong, but on Large (where I often play) it doesn't even seem like it's possible for a civ with a permanent, potentially unlimited per-turn UA benefits to every city that increase in such fashion could be balanced. I sometimes play Standard too, but even there it seems unlikely due to my love of conquest and expansion. If it was limited at, let's say, +2 or 3F/C per city regular and only unlimited in capital, that'd be way more likely to be okay.

 

[CrazyG]

These bonuses decline every Era due to dynastic transition. +15% Food during "We Love the Empress Day."

Would you mind posting the details of how exactly it declines (if you have sorted them out)?

 

[Gazebo]

Would you mind posting the details of how exactly it declines (if you have sorted them out)?

Right now it is simply this algorithm:

int iReduction = ((kPlayer.getNumCities() * GC.getMap().getWorldInfo().GetNumCitiesPolicyCostMod()) / 25);

On standard, GetNumCitiesPolicyCostMod is 11.

So if you've founded 5 cities, and you enter a new era, you'll lose 2 food/culture in every city.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

In spite of protestations, I've been working on tweaking and balancing the new It is actually turning out really well, giving China a very unique goal. Here's the latest:

Creating Great Works or gaining Cities grants "We Love the Empress Day" and +1 Culture and Food in all Cities. These bonuses decline every Era due to dynastic transition. +15% Food during "We Love the Empress Day."

So, same concept as before, however China now stands as the only civ that doesn't want to beeline into a new era. Staying in an Era means you get to hold onto your bonuses longer. The decline is rated based on mapsize and the number of cities in your empire: bigger empires lose more at the end of every era, so beware! China now has to balance rapid expansion against the vagaries of time.

Paper Maker: Paper Maker: now grants 15% more Gold in city during WLTKD. +2 Science (was +1), Science per pop now Gold per pop.

G

That actually sounds unique and fitting. No other civ wants to delay going to another era, some like delaying techs that obsolete their UUs, but none go as far and that is cool imho. It's much better than the previous one which was pretty boring. The only problem is can the AI understand this UA? Even I might be torn on whether or not advancing is better than just getting some previous era tech.

Paper Maker seems like it might need a buff in the future though, unless the Gold per pop was increased from 1 per 4 (or was it 5) to something like 1 per 3, but then its very hard to say how the new China will be before testing it in game because of this decline.

 

[Gazebo]

That actually sounds unique and fitting. No other civ wants to delay going to another era, some like delaying techs that obsolete their UUs, but none go as far and that is cool imho. It's much better than the previous one which was pretty boring. The only problem is can the AI understand this UA? Even I might be torn on whether or not advancing is better than just getting some previous era tech.

Paper Maker seems like it might need a buff in the future though, unless the Gold per pop was increased from 1 per 4 (or was it 5) to something like 1 per 3, but then its very hard to say how the new China will be before testing it in game because of this decline.

AI gets it, yep - I've weighted techs based on the UA's bools so that Wu will favor same-era techs until they're all gone.

Edit: for what it is worth, I was aware of the balancing issues with the UA when I posted the working version info yesterday - I just don't like to post things before I've already started testing them.
G

 

[Funak]

In spite of protestations, I've been working on tweaking and balancing the new UA this morning (snowed in). It is actually turning out really well, giving China a very unique goal. Here's the latest:

Creating Great Works or gaining Cities grants "We Love the Empress Day" and +1 Culture and Food in all Cities. These bonuses decline every Era due to dynastic transition. +15% Food during "We Love the Empress Day."

So, same concept as before, however China now stands as the only civ that doesn't want to beeline into a new era. Staying in an Era means you get to hold onto your bonuses longer. The decline is rated based on mapsize and the number of cities in your empire: bigger empires lose more at the end of every era, so beware! China now has to balance rapid expansion against the vagaries of time.

Paper Maker: Paper Maker: now grants 15% more Gold in city during WLTKD. +2 Science (was +1), Science per pop now Gold per pop.

This seems like a perfect situation to release a beta-version instead of a full release version. Ask for a call to arms response for it as well.

 

[Gazebo]

This seems like a perfect situation to release a beta-version instead of a full release version. Ask for a call to arms response for it as well.

i.e. Funak would like to test this ASAP, please!

G

 

[CrazyG]

i.e. Funak would like to test this ASAP, please!

G

Me too, I'm hesitating to start a new game because I really want to play the new China

 

[Gazebo]

Me too, I'm hesitating to start a new game because I really want to play the new China

Hoping to push out a version later this evening. Work has its demands.

G

 

[Funak]

i.e. Funak would like to test this ASAP, please!

No I was hoping that we could kill it before it goes live and you'd refuse to remake it again actually.
But your explanation sounded a lot nicer, you can keep believing that if you want.

 

[tu_79]

So, beeline one classical technology, Writing. Don't expend great writers, don't settle too much until that. Once in classical, expand like a fool and avoid medieval techs. Repeat.

 

[Funak]

So, beeline one classical technology, Writing. Don't expend great writers, don't settle too much until that. Once in classical, expand like a fool and avoid medieval techs. Repeat.

To be fair, you can't exactly repeat it, you can't both rush the next tech-level and avoid it at the same time

Also kinda curious about the whole 'don't expect great writers until classical era' how many writers do you usually pick up before classical?
If I go for tradition I do sometimes get an artist before classical, but I've never seen a writer before that.


In all I do agree that this is a fairly boring setup for a game, and it still heavily favors maps where you can afford to expand more, enough so that the civ is either going to be close to worthless on duel or crazy overpowered on huge. This is the main reason why I want to see a beta-release first.

 

[Gazebo]

To be fair, you can't exactly repeat it, you can't both rush the next tech-level and avoid it at the same time

Also kinda curious about the whole 'don't expect great writers until classical era' how many writers do you usually pick up before classical?
If I go for tradition I do sometimes get an artist before classical, but I've never seen a writer before that.


In all I do agree that this is a fairly boring setup for a game, and it still heavily favors maps where you can afford to expand more, enough so that the civ is either going to be close to worthless on duel or crazy overpowered on huge. This is the main reason why I want to see a beta-release first.

Well, if you'd read above, you'd see that the loss per era scales with mapsize.

G

 

[tu_79]

To be fair, you can't exactly repeat it, you can't both rush the next tech-level and avoid it at the same time

Also kinda curious about the whole 'don't expect great writers until classical era' how many writers do you usually pick up before classical?
If I go for tradition I do sometimes get an artist before classical, but I've never seen a writer before that.


In all I do agree that this is a fairly boring setup for a game, and it still heavily favors maps where you can afford to expand more, enough so that the civ is either going to be close to worthless on duel or crazy overpowered on huge. This is the main reason why I want to see a beta-release first.

But you can repeat with Renaissance. Hold your writers and artists and prepare for a new era of conquests.
Or go progress and beeline medieval, stay in it as long as possible and beeline industrial. Just saying. But it would feel weird to delay writing in this case.