China

[tu_79]

*sigh*

It is probably more my fault that of the civ, but I just can't do well with China.
Four games, and all have a similar pattern. Cities that grow very fast, infrastructure can't keep up, eternal unhappiness from medieval times on. And I don't remember any game where I saw the AI doing very well with them. They get rolled over often.
Even in my current game, where my neighbors were so friendly to spread a religion with thrift and mastery to all my cities and I have a decent tradition capital, I can't seem to go anywhere.
Their UB is really nice, but the UA doesn't really cut it for me. Just a little something that boosts them economically. Maybe something like -50% unhappiness from specialists?

Really? I'm currently in a China game, and it's going quite well, I'd say. My happiness is at 35 with 6 cities, I have Order ideology and my science skyrockets. I'm in permanent WLTED, with +45% to science for it, somehow. I just kept working specialists with the excess food instead of growing.
EDIT: King, standard, continents (planet sim)

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I played a game as China with a fairly lush coastal capital, where I had something like 75% longer golden ages, and 100+ turns of consecutive golden age and perpetual WLTED in my capital... only to have it be one or two population points above Ethiopia's satellite cities. By the end of the game (I won!) most of my satelite cities were pop. 30 or so, compared to the AI's pop 35-40 cities, and my capital was the third-biggest at about pop 45.

Could I suggest that WLTED be 50% growth, while Golden ages be X% food? 100% growth does not feel powerful, given the effort / cost of attaining those two states for significant lengths of time.

 

[mikes61293]

I played a game as China with a fairly lush coastal capital, where I had something like 75% longer golden ages, and 100+ turns of consecutive golden age and perpetual WLTED in my capital... only to have it be one or two population points above Ethiopia's satellite cities. By the end of the game (I won!) most of my satelite cities were pop. 30 or so, compared to the AI's pop 35-40 cities, and my capital was the third-biggest at about pop 45.

Could I suggest that WLTED be 50% growth, while Golden ages be X% food? 100% growth does not feel powerful, given the effort / cost of attaining those two states for significant lengths of time.

What difficulty are you playing on? On higher difficulties the AI has ridiculously large cities.

 

[alh_p]

Yeah, I'm in a China game (early August release CPP, Prince) and am doing well, but not leading on score. I don't manually manage specialists but have gone tall and Beijing is the largest pop city - but only slightly. I'm tied with Babylon (which went wide but has grown its cities) on tech and slightly behind on culture. In the early modern age, am just now peaking forwards in tech but i was 2nd or 3rd to take an ideology. I've also had Beijing in almost perpetual WLTED, mostly due to the birth of GPs, as well as several Golden Ages.

I've done everything, bar welding science specialists to their posts, to focus on tech and culture. I picked Jesuit education so my cities have not languished without science buildings.

I'm not sure what the spirit of the Chinese civ is meant to be tbh. Without an edge in culture or tech and my cities not actually much larger than others, china seems a bit orphaned. I don't think it should be another Korea and for sure, vanilla doesn't give much clear direction to China either. But I wonder if there shouldn't be some synergy with the growth focus, as India has (i.e. faith overflow). I accept there are faith tenets and buildings granting currency/per pop that growth can synergise with, but I wonder what the CPP vision is for China as a civ?

Is it the intention that China is a populous and fairly happy, but self contained and not very dynamic (i.e. protective, not a tech/culture powerhouse) civ? If so, it seems a bit bland but maybe that's ok: not all civs can/should be too 1 dimensional and flexibility can be an asset. BUT, i still wonder if they couldn't be jazzed up a bit with more of a benefit to being big and populous.

 

[tu_79]

I synergized everything I could to WLTKD, and it worked for me in King. I didn't even fight a single war. Check Theocratic Rule.

I also didn't push the growth thing too hard, just went soft with food and dedicated to specialists.

 

[alh_p]

Running riot with (favourable but balanced) stereotypes of China, it could arguably be a wide & industrious or cultural (not the middle kingdom for nothing), religious (2 of civ's religions are from China) or technological civ (paper, gunpowder, horse harness, mining and civil service). I guess that breadth justifies the bonus to golden ages and WLTED for china, as they have broad effects.

But, while respecting the above breadth, it could be interesting to do something more radical on the UA, perhaps like giving China the growth bonus and an additional choice of moderate bonus (i.e. not as significant as civ's that are specialised in these areas) in either culture, tech, industry, faith or happiness per era. This could be like the Maya long count from vanilla where you only get to choose a given bonus once (e.g. pick religion in the ancient era and never again), to avoid it being exploited for a poor man's specialist tech/culture etc civ.

I realise all this is predicated on the assumption that China isn't very aggressive/warlike but I think the "protective" trait strain in Civ's characterisation fits well enough with history.

 

[Gazebo]

China's UA is all about WLTKD (or WLTED in this case) synergy. Figuring out how to maximize that growth bonus, as well as using policies/beliefs/wonders that benefit from WLTKD, is key. Keep in mind that the growth bonus does not force you into high-pop situations - it simply means that you need less food surplus to achieve a similar growth rate to other civilizations.

Comparing yourself to the AI's cities on higher difficulties isn't fair - the AI gets sizable growth bonuses at Emperor+.

I'm not saying China is the strongest, but that's the UA's intent.

G

 

[CrazyG]

There is talk about China in the general thread, so I'll post my thoughts here.
You have 2 strategies for the UA's growth
a) grow like crazy
b) grow like normal, use the bonus food to work fewer food tiles, work more specialists/mines/whatever

The problem with a) is you need a religion, a very specific religion, but you have no bonus faith. You don't have other ancient era bonuses to indirectly get faith either. Its not just that you have to found a religion, you really need specific beliefs that are pretty popular with the AI (Cathedrals, Theocratic Rule). That means not taking other beliefs, like a more traditional tradition focus (Mastery, Ceremonial Burial, Mandate of Heaven)

The problem with b) is that others do it better. India does it much better, his high base food with a high multiplier seems to work much better than only the high multiplier. But its not just India, Inca and Aztec can compete (and both have a great shot at religion too!). Additionally their food stays steady, the constantly changing multipliers on China is tough to deal with. Food multipliers are additive, so having a 150% for golden age and love of empress is misleadingly large (it also dilutes your other bonuses for stuff like tradition, monopolies, happiness or rationalism).

The other thing is the great person synergy, which leans towards tradition. Tradition really has anti-synergy with the rest of our plan though, if we take mastery we can't take the growth beliefs we want, and the UA's food multiplier makes tradition's mostly insignificant. We also don't compete with other tradition lovers, like Arabia, in raw power. Korea is a civ that has many similarities with China, but side by side just looks a lot better. My experience with China as progress is you usually just fall flat on your face immediately, if you survive you can't really take advantage of golden ages or great person births for a long time. Authority works decently but doesn't play into your strengths at all.

The thing about WLTED synergy is if you play tall its not that difficult to get it all anyways, and there actually aren't that many places to grab synergy for it. If tradition your capital gets way too much WLTED while other cities don't get that much more than a normal civ.

I think the paper maker is among the worst UB. When you build it, its a library with +1 culture, at 12 pop it will have 1 science over the regular library. Eventually it starts to earn a pretty good chunk of science, but by that point other science UBs like the Skola or Seowon would be built and provide more than the paper maker does.

I constantly find myself wishing the ChuKoNu was available earlier. The unit itself is great and it would be a top tier UU if the rest of China could support it better. The thing I would change first is the UB, because its just weak. The UA isn't outright weak but its really difficult to use

 

[Funak]

There is talk about China in the general thread, so I'll post my thoughts here.
You have 2 strategies for the UA's growth
a) grow like crazy
b) grow like normal, use the bonus food to work fewer food tiles, work more specialists/mines/whatever

The problem with a) is you need a religion, a very specific religion, but you have no bonus faith. You don't have other ancient era bonuses to indirectly get faith either. Its not just that you have to found a religion, you really need specific beliefs that are pretty popular with the AI (Cathedrals, Theocratic Rule). That means not taking other beliefs, like a more traditional tradition focus (Mastery, Ceremonial Burial, Mandate of Heaven)

The problem with b) is that others do it better. India does it much better, his high base food with a high multiplier seems to work much better than only the high multiplier. But its not just India, Inca and Aztec can compete (and both have a great shot at religion too!). Additionally their food stays steady, the constantly changing multipliers on China is tough to deal with. Food multipliers are additive, so having a 150% for golden age and love of empress is misleadingly large (it also dilutes your other bonuses for stuff like tradition, monopolies, happiness or rationalism).

The other thing is the great person synergy, which leans towards tradition. Tradition really has anti-synergy with the rest of our plan though, if we take mastery we can't take the growth beliefs we want, and the UA's food multiplier makes tradition's mostly insignificant. We also don't compete with other tradition lovers, like Arabia, in raw power. Korea is a civ that has many similarities with China, but side by side just looks a lot better. My experience with China as progress is you usually just fall flat on your face immediately, if you survive you can't really take advantage of golden ages or great person births for a long time. Authority works decently but doesn't play into your strengths at all.

The thing about WLTED synergy is if you play tall its not that difficult to get it all anyways, and there actually aren't that many places to grab synergy for it. If tradition your capital gets way too much WLTED while other cities don't get that much more than a normal civ.

I think the paper maker is among the worst UB. When you build it, its a library with +1 culture, at 12 pop it will have 1 science over the regular library. Eventually it starts to earn a pretty good chunk of science, but by that point other science UBs like the Skola or Seowon would be built and provide more than the paper maker does.

I constantly find myself wishing the ChuKoNu was available earlier. The unit itself is great and it would be a top tier UU if the rest of China could support it better. The thing I would change first is the UB, because its just weak. The UA isn't outright weak but its really difficult to use

Honestly, b isn't even an option, these are all bonuses to growth, not food, meaning if you're not putting all your effort into producing food you're not getting any actual benefit out of the growth.

However I'm going to present you with a option c here, which is generally what I go for when I play as China. I periodically grow my cities like crazy, gaining maybe 4 pop in a row and then I refocus the city on production to keep the infrastructure up for a few buildings, then again back to the all out growth. This strategy can be done, and is usually the optimal way of working your cities, with any civ while you're playing tradition, but china benefits a lot more from it because they have clear periods of extra growth power. You can bulb an artist and a merchant at the same time and then focus growth at the cost of everything else for the next 15ish turns.


As far as the the Paper-maker goes, you've got the sciencevalue of the regular library slightly wrong, they break even on science at 4 pop (library is +2 science and papermaker is +1 +(pop/4)). As far as unique buildings goes, the paper maker is definitely not a star, the main strength of it is the +10% science produced during golden ages, and even that's kinda weak for a unique building. I might be extremely biased because of my love for the old paper maker however.

 

[CrazyG]

Honestly, b isn't even an option, these are all bonuses to growth, not food, meaning if you're not putting all your effort into producing food you're not getting any actual benefit out of the growth.

However I'm going to present you with a option c here, which is generally what I go for when I play as China. I periodically grow my cities like crazy, gaining maybe 4 pop in a row and then I refocus the city on production to keep the infrastructure up for a few buildings, then again back to the all out growth. This strategy can be done, and is usually the optimal way of working your cities, with any civ while you're playing tradition, but china benefits a lot more from it because they have clear periods of extra growth power. You can bulb an artist and a merchant at the same time and then focus growth at the cost of everything else for the next 15ish turns.


As far as the the Paper-maker goes, you've got the sciencevalue of the regular library slightly wrong, they break even on science at 4 pop (library is +2 science and papermaker is +1 +(pop/4)). As far as unique buildings goes, the paper maker is definitely not a star, the main strength of it is the +10% science produced during golden ages, and even that's kinda weak for a unique building. I might be extremely biased because of my love for the old paper maker however.

What you call option c is what I meant with a. 10% science during golden ages is really weak for a UA (an always 10% science wouldn't even be that good)

I agree b is terrible but I put it on the list so someone wouldn't comment saying that's what you are supposed to do. What was the old paper maker?

 

[Funak]

What you call option c is what I meant with a. 10% science during golden ages is really weak for a UA (an always 10% science wouldn't even be that good)

I agree b is terrible but I put it on the list so someone wouldn't comment saying that's what you are supposed to do. What was the old paper maker?

Old paper-maker was a Grocer replacement I believe, it added pop/2 food and pop/3 culture (think it was called Tea Pavillion at this point)
Another old papermaker provided pop/2 science and pop/4 culture (this was a library replacement)

There are probably a few others, the papermaker changed a whole lot, and used to be really cool.

 

[tu_79]

I think the main problem with China is that she relies on WLTED and growth, and these suck. I believe Brazil is the other one, but at least she has improved carnivals.
As you have pointed, growth without food is useless. And many times I don't want my cities to grow too much. Only in certain situation I found myself with a happiness excedent and then wished to grow faster, but by then most extra luxuries become difficult to acquire and I have to wait for Great Merchants (although the tip to focus on food while on a WLTKD is a good one, thanks Funak).
So, for me, WLTKD are things that come rather randomly, and rarely welcomed. Now, having a civ strength tied around that is surely something different from what I use to do. In that regard, it is a unique experience.

I think WLTKD was fine in vanilla, where more pop was more science and leading in techs was the way to win. But as it currently is, it cannot interest me enough to care when I'm not playing China, and even then, it depends if I'm able to take the religious beliefs that sinergize.

 

[Legen]

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, as I don't play China, but I often saw Wu Zetian to be more about Golden Ages than about WLTED due to the extra science from Paper Maker on GAs. Moreover, it's easier to stack GA bonuses outside religion for GAs than for WLTED: tradition's finisher, monopolies for +25% duration (bonus with Rationalism's Scientific Revolution), Chichen Itza, Rationalism's Enlightment, Freedom's Universal Suffrage, Baths and School of Philoposhy. Also, Piety's Divine Right, which benefits both. You can set a lot for golden ages without having to resort to religion, and the benefit may be higher due to how strong Golden Ages are compared to WLTKD, and that GAs actually help managing the unhappiness from your extra growth.

On a note, I think it would make sense to switch Paper Maker's +10% during GAs with Korea's +25% during GAs. Korea has a very general purpose bonus for a science-focused civ, while China has a very specific bonus for a civ with a general purpose, great-people-fueled UA.

 

[Funak]

I think China just fell slightly behind at some point when growth just lost value (maybe it was the watermill nerf, or something else), in general when you play China you usually just end up over-growing your cities and getting strangled by unhappiness.

Maybe for that reason the Chinese UB should be more focused on supporting growth? Either by giving more yields per pop or by reducing unhappiness?

 

[tu_79]

I think China just fell slightly behind at some point when growth just lost value (maybe it was the watermill nerf, or something else), in general when you play China you usually just end up over-growing your cities and getting strangled by unhappiness.

Maybe for that reason the Chinese UB should be more focused on supporting growth? Either by giving more yields per pop or by reducing unhappiness?

Reducing unhappiness goes well with confucianism.

 

[CrazyG]

On a note, I think it would make sense to switch Paper Maker's +10% during GAs with Korea's +25% during GAs. Korea has a very general purpose bonus for a science-focused civ, while China has a very specific bonus for a civ with a general purpose, great-people-fueled UA

I really want to see China get something that just helps in general, not only during golden ages. You are already really powerful once you achieve the golden age/ WLTED spam. The big problem with China is the extreme lack of benefits outside of those time periods, which includes almost the entire ancient and classical eras, and the race for religion (you need to do well in order to get much out of your golden ages). I also don't think Korea should lose its extra great people, Korea has become a lot worse in the last few patches and I think Korea is really well designed, China is sort of a mess.

Real quick the similarities between China and Korea
both have a unique ranged unit with logistics available in the medieval era
both have strong science, particularly the late game
both have science oriented unique buildings
both have synergy with great people
both have synergy with golden ages
both usually want to pick tradition

The only thing China has Korea doesn't is a growth multiplier. The only thing Korea has China does not is extra great people %. Korea also gets its bonus science much earlier and the UU significantly earlier, which really contribute to it being stronger. I don't see how this is distinct enough for 2 totally different civs, rerolling and getting a different Monopoly and corporation can get you the same distinction. Does there need to be another tradition picker with strong science? Arabia and Korea already do that, and those 2 play noticeably different.

Right now the best strategy when thinking about China, is to play Korea instead. If you want a crazy growth strategy you don't pick China because its not very good at it. Tradition also isn't fantastic for a growth civ, you want to focus great people and the opportunity cost for working farms is really high. I don't want to just see China buffed to the point where it outclasses Korea, they need more to distinguish.

 

[Gazebo]

I really want to see China get something that just helps in general, not only during golden ages. You are already really powerful once you achieve the golden age/ WLTED spam. The big problem with China is the extreme lack of benefits outside of those time periods, which includes almost the entire ancient and classical eras, and the race for religion (you need to do well in order to get much out of your golden ages). I also don't think Korea should lose its extra great people, Korea has become a lot worse in the last few patches and I think Korea is really well designed, China is sort of a mess.

Real quick the similarities between China and Korea
both have a unique ranged unit with logistics available in the medieval era
both have strong science, particularly the late game
both have science oriented unique buildings
both have synergy with great people
both have synergy with golden ages
both usually want to pick tradition

The only thing China has Korea doesn't is a growth multiplier. The only thing Korea has China does not is extra great people %. Korea also gets its bonus science much earlier and the UU significantly earlier, which really contribute to it being stronger. I don't see how this is distinct enough for 2 totally different civs, rerolling and getting a different Monopoly and corporation can get you the same distinction. Does there need to be another tradition picker with strong science? Arabia and Korea already do that, and those 2 play noticeably different.

Right now the best strategy when thinking about China, is to play Korea instead. If you want a crazy growth strategy you don't pick China because its not very good at it. Tradition also isn't fantastic for a growth civ, you want to focus great people and the opportunity cost for working farms is really high. I don't want to just see China buffed to the point where it outclasses Korea, they need more to distinguish.

I actually agree with Legen on this one - more GPs can very well be a steroid, as great improvements are at their strongest in the early/mid game, and they're essential to China. Anyways he's partially incorrect, however, as the Seowon has a flat 20% boost to GPP rates (not a Golden Age specific bonus). Switching that with the Paper Maker's WLTKD bonus to science fits each building's role a bit better.

 

[Legen]

About Korea, I was actually thinking of UA part, not the Seowon, but the end result looks better this way. Gives China something outside GAs and WLTED to work towards them.

 

[Funak]

Still feels like Tradition-based science, which kinda is a role Korea already fills. In fact the more I think about it the less I really like it.

 

[CrazyG]

Still feels like Tradition-based science, which kinda is a role Korea already fills. In fact the more I think about it the less I really like it.

Exactly. Arabia also does Tradition based science well. Does there really need to be another one?

I was suggesting de-linking China from science, but another way to carve a niche would be to de-link it from tradition. I'll just throw out an idea, could you move the free WLTED to something other than a great person birth? Like 5 turns in all cities whenever you unlock a policy, or 15 on era advance? If china could pursue other policy trees it wouldn't be so similar to Korea. This also would provide a small but noticeable boost to the early game which I think would be really valuable for China. I feel like if you just move around different science or GP benefits they will continue to a wannabe Korea, unless China finally outperforms Korea, but then doesn't Korea just become a wannabe?

Just my 2 cents on Korea
He has just been nerfed, several of the recent changes indirectly nerf them, and that loss of GP rate will certainly be a nerf IMO. Korea isn't a pure science civ, I sometimes win using diplomacy or tourism. Science is always useful and extra GP work for a variety of strategies. Taking away that extra great person % kills a lot of his flexibility. He already looked somewhat weak next to Arabia before he lost that 25% GP rate in golden ages (I think Arabia and Korea and distinct enough that they don't outclass each other though)