choxorn 01: Low level training game

[Whomp]

I'll leave this up to you guys but I have quite a few suggestions on goodsmell's opening play. I think it would be useful for all of you to play the Carthaginian 4000 opening save that goodsmell played so we can evaluate each of your starts off that save.

The alternative is to each play your own save for 20 turns and we can evaluate each of those.

 

[choxorn]

I thought I said I'd join.

Whatever then.

No, you said you might join:

Thay are scarce. Once this goes to monarch or regent I might join. But, you will have a very hard time getting chieftain or warlord.

Hope that discussion wasn't already over.

I think you mean the original 4000 BC save from goodsmell.

Doh! That's what I meant. I have edited my post.

What is occuring here? Last time I looked we were still discussing settings, now 'goodsmell' appears to have unilaterally started a game.

Choxorn: This is your gig, I think you need to execise your authority by making a few decisions; and the first one should be whether to continue in this haphazard fashion or allow (the incredibly patient) 'Whomp' to advise and organise. I suggest the latter.

I also suggest we let Whomp organize and we tell goodsmell not do this again.

 

[Whomp]

OK here's the plan and my rules.

Let's work with goodsmell's 4000 BC save with Carthaginians. Everyone play his 4000 BC within 48 hours and post your log (detailed) here. We will review all of the opening plays after they are posted and discuss them. We will take the best opening play based on our discussions.

The Carths traits give you couple of cheap building crutches. Cheap barracks, temple and cathedrals. Barracks I'm ok with in core cities however I don't want to see any temples or cathedrals built early. We are not going for a culture win. We are going for a space shot and we want to spend our hard earned money on developing a highly scientific powerful economic civ.
Space will allow us to train all the way through the ages. The best kind of training.

As an old civ3 sage once said "Growth is power". That being the case, all victory conditions require land acquisition. To gain land we will need to do some fighting.

We will also need to be crafty traders.
[*]If you are going to make a trade; save the game and then make the trade. In your turn-report write down very detailed what was traded, how and most importantly why you made that trade. I'd also appreciate it if you send me a PM that there is a save for me to judge.
[/LIST]
Here's the decision making process I learned from Bede and Rik Meleet and the questions I'd want answered for every trade.

Spoiler :

1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.
--When structuring a trade: Start with the most expensive monopoly and work your way down to the next near monopoly and finish with the cheap techs at the end for the possibility of a 3 or 4 fer and a profitable trade.
--Do you need it right away or could it wait? Dead end techs are many times not useful.

So off we go. goodsmell please post your 4000 BC save and each of you play that save within 48 hours.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK here's the plan and my rules.

Let's work with goodsmell's 4000 BC save with Carthaginians. Everyone play his 4000 BC within 48 hours and post your log (detailed) here. We will review all of the opening plays after they are posted and discuss them. We will take the best opening play based on our discussions.

The Carths traits give you couple of cheap building crutches. Cheap barracks, temple and cathedrals. Barracks I'm ok with in core cities however I don't want to see any temples or cathedrals built early. We are not going for a culture win. We are going for a space shot and we want to spend our hard earned money on developing a highly scientific powerful economic civ.
Space will allow us to train all the way through the ages. The best kind of training.

As an old civ3 sage once said "Growth is power". That being the case, all victory conditions require land acquisition. To gain land we will need to do some fighting.

We will also need to be crafty traders.
[*]If you are going to make a trade; save the game and then make the trade. In your turn-report write down very detailed what was traded, how and most importantly why you made that trade. I'd also appreciate it if you send me a PM that there is a save for me to judge.
[/LIST]
Here's the decision making process I learned from Bede and Rik Meleet and the questions I'd want answered for every trade.

Spoiler :

1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.
--When structuring a trade: Start with the most expensive monopoly and work your way down to the next near monopoly and finish with the cheap techs at the end for the possibility of a 3 or 4 fer and a profitable trade.
--Do you need it right away or could it wait? Dead end techs are many times not useful.

So off we go. goodsmell please post your 4000 BC save and each of you play that save within 48 hours.

Cheap temples/cathedrals? I thought Carthage was Commercial & Industrious in PTW?

 

[goodsmell]

I also suggest we let Whomp organize and we tell goodsmell not do this again.

No problem with that , I just thought nobody's active and wanted to start already .It won't happen again

Guys I told you just to try if the SAVE of 3050BC works , I afraid my SAVES won't work since I've installed GraphicMod not Correctly. and I

anyway here's my SAVE , if it won't work I guess we'll just need to create a new one .

 

[Alex Johnson]

May I comment on goodsmell's starting moves? I'm trying to open up discussion. I don't know everything, but I think there are a number of things to comment on, and everyone else playing this scenario should play their 20 turns and then think about how their turns compare with goodsmell's.

And choxorn, this is your game and your thread. You should make the decisions. Too much democracy = indecision = failure. Listen to Whomp, but you should make the final calls.

Spoiler :

Location:
Starting with a look at the opening screen shot. That is a good place for a capital. Every square in your initial border has a bonus and the river will let you grow without an aqueduct. But there is a problem: no potential food bonus. This will make producing settlers slower. Settlers = expansion and early expansion decides whether you win or lose. So you should plant your capital here, but your first priority needs to be finding a high food producing area (cows, wheat, floodplains) and getting your next settler there ASAP!

Worker Usage:
First action is to go west and road then irrigate. A road west of town crosses a river, so you lose the movement advantage of the road. A road on the bonus grassland south would not cross a river. Irrigation is a wasted action. When you irrigate grassland, it goes from 2 food --> 3 food. Because you are in Despotism, any production of 3 is lowered by 1, so your irrigated grassland produces 2 food...no change. Build mine instead. Irrigated/roaded grassland to west = 2/0/1. Mined/roaded bonus grassland to south = 2/2/1. With much higher production and not enough food for a settler factory, pop out 3 warriors and find a spot for a settler factory ASAP.

Science:
100% research in 1st turn. Great move! Getting only military technologies, but we don't know anybody and are not aiming for a conquest victory. Bad move. Remember, capital is not getting enough food to be a settler factory but we have high shield production due to mined bonus grassland. Get pottery and build a granary ASAP to make up for not having cows/wheat/floodplains. Then your settlers will come twice as often. We need to expand fast! After pottery we might want bronze working, but since we are going for space race and need high research keep the path to libraries in mind.

End Notes:
Ending with a look at the closing screen shot. Still haven't met anybody but goodsmell wants to build a barracks. Is there any reason to do that right now and pay the upkeep on it every turn? Are we going to be building a lot more military units right away? He's uncovered a good amount of land to the east but to the west there is black. We can see only 2 spaces away. There might be cows we could settle, but we don't know. There could be an evil empire about to stomp us be we never looked. Gotta get warriors exploring in BOTH directions! Connected wines to capital...but it is outside our borders. The worker wasted another 3 turns he should have spent improving area under our control. Once we have improved 4 squares inside our borders, he should start roading towards our next city site so the settler gets there faster. When wines come into our city radius we can build a road on them. The furs are too far away to worry about for now. If we get out there, connect them, otherwise don't even think about wasting a worker to go get them.

 

[vmxa]

I can't remember PTW, but they are Ind and Seafaring in C3C.

 

[Whomp]

@Bucephalus you are correct. In Play the World, the Carthaginians are considered an Industrious and Commercial civilization, therefore, they start with Alphabet and Masonry.

goodsmell do you have the 4000 BC save? If not it may have the 3950 BC save in your "auto save" file. If you save over that one we could use that.

 

[goodsmell]

Guys I guess I'll reinstall my Civilization soon , 4000BC SAVE takes more than 1MB I don't know why . I can rar it but it won't work anyway without having GraphicMod as I have . It will be more easlier and faster if you Whomp will get a 4000BC SAVE .

What do you think ?

edited : Whomp forget it mate , I was'nt concentrated when I started it and forgot we're running a PTW version and played a C3C . and the result is that I should'nt play anymore at NIGHT when my eyes half closed , lol .

 

[Whomp]

OK no problems goodsmell. Let's start over. I think Carths are a good training civ for space and most of you like them.

It seems a consensus is for...
Continents map
60% water (more land and less chance of islands)
sedentary or roaming barbs
wet
5 billion (more rivers)
temperate

Can someone generate a few PTW 4000 BC starts to discuss or I can later.

 

[goodsmell]

Why won't you do it brother ? that will be more perfect without any problems like I'd
generate some start , that seems enough good for you ..

 

[Whomp]

OK I think we've herded all of Choxorn's Cool Cats together so here we go.
This game is as Carthaginians on regent.
Continents
60% water
wet
Temperate
5 billion years
roaming barbs
All victory conditions are enabled
AI respawn is turned off
Culturally linked locations are turned off
Remember your trading reputation is everything so make sure to be very careful with it. If you make a deal follow it all the way through.

The Cool Cats SAVE

Have at it cool cats. Report back with detail within 48 hours.

 

[goodsmell]

I can see jungle , I can see wheat and river , is it a coast south ?

I'll play my 20turns , I just have to patch again my civersions

 

[vmxa]

Guys I guess I'll reinstall my Civilization soon , 4000BC SAVE takes more than 1MB I don't know why . I can rar it but it won't work anyway without having GraphicMod as I have . It will be more easlier and faster if you Whomp will get a 4000BC SAVE .

What do you think ?

edited : Whomp forget it mate , I was'nt concentrated when I started it and forgot we're running a PTW version and played a C3C . and the result is that I should'nt play anymore at NIGHT when my eyes half closed , lol .

Normally even a huge map should be less than 500mb so early in the game. Autosaves are much larger than manual saves. You should always post manual saves.

 

[goodsmell]

Well, I can say nothing besides tell you again I'was playing at night with half closed eyes )))

 

[Bucephalus]

1) OK. Not too bad, I think. River, wheat, 3 BG and (it looks like) 2 floodplains. Not keen to be on the edge of a jungle but to move away is to move away from the river. I move the worker to the BG by the river. Confirm at least one floodplain but see nothing to cause me to move. I found Carthage without moving. I place citizen to work the BG by the river. The wheat tempted me briefly but I'm going with the extra gold and a shield.
Warrior to be built in 5. Science at 100% gives me pottery in 12; I plan to build an early granary.

2 -3) Worker builds road.

4) Worker completes road; begins to mine same tile.

5) Worker mines.

6) Warrior is completed, and moves 2 tiles NW to the floodplain. Another floodplain confirmed. I'm thinking that some kind of settler factory is possible.
I set Carthage to build barracks as a pre-build for the granary. Pottery due in 5.

7) Worker completes mine and is moved to the forest NW. Warrior moves on to the mountain.

8) Worker begins to chop forest; Will complete in 5. Warrior moves to plains NW of furs. I'm keeping the warrior moving in a circular path for now, I'm a little concerned about barbs, and don't want to stray too far from Carthage. I stick to the mountains where I can for maximum vision.

9-10) Warrior continues to explore.

11) We learn pottery. I switch research to Writing. Realise it's been a long time since I played 'PTW', I'm wearing my 'Conquests' head; there is no slingshot to Republic. Decide to stick with Writing anyway as there are no immediate threats requiring military solutions. We can trade for the lower tier stuff later. Carthage gains a new citizen; he is placed to work a BG. Switch build from barracks to granary (due in 11).

12) Warrior explores east.

13) Forest chop completed. Granary now due in 7.

14-15) Warrior continues to explore. Still no barbs or civs. Worker moves to wheat.

16) Worker begins to road wheat.

17) Warrior explores.

18) Worker completes road; begins to irrigate.

19) Warrior explores.

20) Worker completes irrigation; moves to undeveloped BG. Growth in 2, Granary in 1, Writing in 31.

 

[Whomp]

This spoiler is for Bucephalus' eyes only.

Spoiler :

I like your turnset. Very solid. I would have done much of the same thing. Worked the commerce tiles (fast pace for space!), chopped (any loss of shields?)and pre-built for a gran...absolutely beautiful. The only thing I may have considered differently is getting the wheat up and running. I would've probably moved the warrior in a straighline NW since another warrior would likely be built before a settler. Nice turnset!
Maybe add your gold and gpt so others can see.

 

[choxorn]

Screenie pleaz?

 

[Whomp]

I would hold off on screenies for "spoilerish" sake until everyone has their turns played.

 

[The 777 Hoax]

Could we have a roster please? When am I up?