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Christian Persecution

Tank_Guy#3

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I've heard a variety of numbers thrown out for the number of Christians killed by the Romans. Numbers ranging from thousands up into the millions.

So my question is as follows:

What is a generally accepted number (or range) of Christians executed by the Romans through various means?
 
The boundaries for the number of Christians killed depend on individual historians' credibility given to the various sources. If you accept the the Liber Pontificalis, which records 17,000 martyrdoms in a single month during the Diocletian persecutions (which were assuredly the most severe in the history of the Roman Empire) for instance, than the lower boundary of somewhere in the line of 3,000 - 5,000 is impossible. Conversely, the upper boundary will usually say somewhere upwards 200,000, which is plausible but unlikely given the resources devoted by the various Roman emperors to worming out illegal religions.

My expertise is not on this period, but I generally incline to thinking it was somewhere in the 100,000 mark, given the imperial records on the severity of punishment for not engaging in ritual Roman sacrifice versus the relative Christian population.
 
I remember hearing that the Christian Persecutions by the Romans were for the most part rather overblown. The only time the Christians were really "thrown to the lions" with any consistency or intensity was under Diocletian (or was it Hadrian?)

I'm expecting some kind of Dachs/Baal/Masada pwnt event to happen to me sometime in the near future, however.
 
I think it was Diocletian. If I remember correctly Hadrian was not that bad to the Christians.
 
The severity of the persecutions is generally overblown. The persecutions were clearly politically, and not religiously, motivated, and many of the emperors had a rather blasé attitude, at best, about it. The main conflict was that Christians refused to sacrifice to the imperial cult, which was tantamount to disloyalty and treason. Trajan didn't even want active searches for Christians, and offered numerous chances to them to recant their beliefs. Only a minority of emperors, such as Diocletian and Decius, were active persecutors. Still, regardless of their numbers, news of such persecutions must've had great public impact in its time.
 
I remember hearing that the Christian Persecutions by the Romans were for the most part rather overblown. The only time the Christians were really "thrown to the lions" with any consistency or intensity was under Diocletian (or was it Hadrian?)
From what I know, this is true. As others have said, the Christians weren't persecuted that badly overall. Diocletian persecuted the crap out of them, but most emperors left them alone unless they did something stupid in public, like going out of their way to deny worship to the Emperor. So far as I know, Hadrian is among those who essentially ignored the Christians, though he was rather nasty to the Jews. Jews were probably treated worse on average than Christians, but they were never treated as badly as the Christians were when an emperor did decide to go after them.

I'm expecting some kind of Dachs/Baal/Masada pwnt event to happen to me sometime in the near future, however.
:lmao:

I'm happy to have such a reputation, but the fact is I really don't know much about this at all. I'm far more up to speed on what was going on with the Jews in the Empire than I am with the Christians, and I'm not an expert on that either. Plotinus is probably the go-to guy on this particular topic. Maybe Masada and Dachs can keep our triumvirate of pwnage alive in this thread, because I certainly can't.
 
Nobody knows how many Christians died in the persecutions, but the chances are it was less than you'd guess from some of the more overblown martyrdom rhetoric of the time. This is because:

(1) There weren't all that many Christians within the Roman empire to start with, probably less than 1% by AD 200, probably no more than 10% by the time of the Great Persecution of Diocletian. (These are Rodney Stark's figures - obviously there's a great deal of uncertainty about this too.)

(2) Persecutions were sporadic. For most of the second century and much of the middle of the third century there were none to speak of (to the point where Origen could complain about how soft the church had become). There were only a couple of empire-wide persecutions where they got systematic about it. Origen himself, Victor of Rome, and Julius Africanus all enjoyed good relationships with the imperial families themselves.

(3) Many governors did not wish to kill people and did their best to let people off; we hear, for example, of one governor who, charged to force suspects to recite a confession of faith in the traditional gods and execute those who refused, devised a confession of faith that was so vague that anyone, including Christians, would be able to sign it. (We aren't told what this wonderful inter-faith formula actually was, though.) However, this consideration is mitigated by the fact that there were other governors who were perfectly prepared to kill Christians and were quite merciless about it; the trope of the "merciful Roman governor" has been somewhat overblown by late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century scholars who, raised with a predominantly classical education, regarded the Romans as the pinnacle of civilisation and didn't like to contemplate how brutal they really were.

(4) Many of the persecutions weren't about killing Christians anyway. For example, the persecution of Decius, in which Origen died, was designed to demoralise the Christians by torturing their leaders into denying their faith - at least at first.

(5) When ordered to sacrifice to the gods or face the wrath of the state, tremendous numbers of Christians chose the former option. In Decius' persecution, for example, the entire church of Smyrna, led by the bishop, all sacrificed to the gods. In Carthage, Cyprian said that so many Christians turned up at the temple that the priests had to turn them away. Others, somewhat less willing to give up their faith, fled (including Cyprian himself, the first time), or obtained forged certificates stating that they had performed the sacrifices when they hadn't. So the image of bold Christians bravely upholding their faith in the face of torture and death unfortunately applies only to some Christians - although again, what proportion is impossible to determine. Just as some Christians besieged the pagan priests with their request to turn apostate, so other Christians woke up the governors in the middle of the night demanding to be executed.

Estimates of how many people died range from hundreds to thousands. My guess is that a couple of thousand may be reasonable, but that is very approximate. Tens or even hundreds of thousands seem most unlikely. One certain thing is that the numbers of Christians who died in Roman persecutions were absolutely dwarfed by those who died in Sassanid persecutions in the fourth and fifth centuries, when tens of thousands of people were simply massacred.

Nb. at least some of the Christians who died under Roman rule were not executed but killed by mobs; Christians were always vulnerable to mob attacks. They seem to have had terrible mobs in some cities. In Alexandria of the fourth and fifth centuries we hear of Christian mobs, Jewish mobs, and pagan mobs, all willing to lynch each other at the drop of a hat (Hypatia was the most famous victim, but don't think for a moment that the Christian mob which killed her was any worse than the pagan mobs that killed Christian monks or indeed the Christian mobs that killed other Christians, such as the unfortunate George of Cappadocia). Also, it seems that on occasions of mob violence, Christians were especially vulnerable to being attacked by Jews, reflecting the general rule that no-one bullies the person at the bottom of the pecking order worse than the person who is next to bottom of the pecking order. So we hear of Jews helping with the execution of Polycarp, for example.
 
Estimates of how many people died range from hundreds to thousands. My guess is that a couple of thousand may be reasonable, but that is very approximate. Tens or even hundreds of thousands seem most unlikely. One certain thing is that the numbers of Christians who died in Roman persecutions were absolutely dwarfed by those who died in Sassanid persecutions in the fourth and fifth centuries, when tens of thousands of people were simply massacred.

Thanks for the input. It reflects what I've long believed; that the persecutions were hyped up to generate outrage, as was so much of Christian pious forgery. I'm also struck by the Sassanid persecutions. Just as in Rome, Persian treatment of religion was not based on doctrinal disputes, but on political disputes. Since Rome had become Christian, Christians in the Persian Empire were regarded as being equivalent to Roman infiltrators, and Jews, as being natural allies.
 
Thanks for the input. It reflects what I've long believed; that the persecutions were hyped up to generate outrage, as was so much of Christian pious forgery.

I wouldn't say it was hyped up to generate outrage. Whatever the actual numbers of Christians killed, all Christians lived under threat of their lives; if they were left alone, it was only because the local governor felt like it, and they never knew when he might change his mind or be replaced. For every Christian who was actually executed, there would have been many, many more who knew them or witnessed the event. They also had writings by those who witnessed it (such as the description of the martyrdom of Polycarp) or by the martyrs themselves (such as Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Romans). It's hardly possible for us to appreciate the psychological effect that all of this had on the church, no matter how small the numbers of direct victims may have been.

I'm also struck by the Sassanid persecutions. Just as in Rome, Persian treatment of religion was not based on doctrinal disputes, but on political disputes. Since Rome had become Christian, Christians in the Persian Empire were regarded as being equivalent to Roman infiltrators, and Jews, as being natural allies.

That was certainly part of it. However, there were persecutions even before the Roman empire Christianised, and these and the later ones had some religious motivation as well as political. Herpad Kartir ordered a clampdown on Christians as early as the 280s as part of the general promotion of Zoroastrianism, which was part of an attempt at cultural revitalisation (the Manichaeans were persecuted too).
 
Hmmm, I guess I misunderstood. I was expecting a thread about persecutions by Christians.
 
Hmmm, I guess I misunderstood. I was expecting a thread about persecutions by Christians.

Hard to know. There certainly was a fair amount of prosection of "pagans" by the Christians after Christianity became favored by the emperor and then the state religion. The problem is that the Christians would want to show the number as a minimum.

Actually, as regards persecution of Christians, it often wasn't a government persecution at all. Most provincial governors followed a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Aside from Nero's persecution after the fire of Rome and Diocletian, most prosecutions were often localized, spontaneous events. The citizens were outraged by the Christians and some disaster, natural or otherwise, would be blamed on them. Somewhat similar to pogroms against Jews in the medieval period. However, if the governor had a vendetta it could get very nasty.

Political vs. Religious is a little hazy. Failing to worship the state gods was somewhat a crime against the state. Natural disasters were blamed on the gods being angry. Why are the gods angry? They aren't getting proper respect. Why not? Too many people aren't worshipping, we have to get back to proper religious observance and the Christians don't do that.
 
Hard to know. There certainly was a fair amount of prosection of "pagans" by the Christians after Christianity became favored by the emperor and then the state religion. The problem is that the Christians would want to show the number as a minimum.

Actually, as regards persecution of Christians, it often wasn't a government persecution at all. Most provincial governors followed a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Aside from Nero's persecution after the fire of Rome and Diocletian, most prosecutions were often localized, spontaneous events. The citizens were outraged by the Christians and some disaster, natural or otherwise, would be blamed on them. Somewhat similar to pogroms against Jews in the medieval period. However, if the governor had a vendetta it could get very nasty.

Political vs. Religious is a little hazy. Failing to worship the state gods was somewhat a crime against the state. Natural disasters were blamed on the gods being angry. Why are the gods angry? They aren't getting proper respect. Why not? Too many people aren't worshipping, we have to get back to proper religious observance and the Christians don't do that.

They'd want to, but my count grants the highest carnage due to religious intolerance at the hands of the Christians. To me, it centers around the glorification of "faith" -- of accepting what you are told on faith and without question. Religious power and authority are at least as easily abusable as military, political or economic power thanks to the unquestioning hold it has over so many.

Those who question why the town of Salem, Massachusetts rose up for a horrendous act straight out of the dark ages, burning girls to death based on "he said/she said" rumor and superstition without questioning their rationality, or why the Christian majority in Germany supported Hitler's rise to power without too many qualms, as well as how pedophilic priests get away with their horrible sins for so many years, I think fail to understand this. It doesn't even matter whether or not there is a God -- from sheer peer pressure, you go along with where the flock is going, even if the shepherd is leading the flock to the slaughterhouse.
 
Those who question why the town of Salem, Massachusetts rose up for a horrendous act straight out of the dark ages, burning girls to death based on "he said/she said" rumor...
They were hanged, actually. The English traditionally reserved burning for heretics (and had given it up entirely by that time), finding witch-hunts to be too much of a fuss for that sort of thing. The English, New or Original Flavour, generally considered witch-hunting a messy and undesirable business, favouring pardons over execution, and swift executions over sadistic spectacles. (It is no coincidence that the infamous Matthew Hopkins operated during the English Civil War, a time of great social and political turmoil during which few authority figures had the time or energy to restrain him. The equivalent would be someone running around Virginia c.1862 hunting imaginary Anarchists; people simply had better things to worry about.)

It may also be interesting to observe that torture was illegal in England at that time, so Hopkins and his ilk were lead to certain "indirect" methods of extracting confessions, some of which would not be altogether alien to the inmates of Guantanamo Bay... :mischief:
 
That would be the period between 305 and 1945.

Anti-pagan legislation only started to appear in the 350s (under Constans and Constantius II), and it wasn't enforced until the 390s (under Theodosius I). Even then it was nothing like on the scale of the anti-Christian legislation of the pagan period. Remember that the Christians did not start actually executing people for paganism until the time of Justinian - two centuries after Constantine. The pagans, by contrast, had started executing Christians about thirty years after the religion first appeared.

They'd want to, but my count grants the highest carnage due to religious intolerance at the hands of the Christians. To me, it centers around the glorification of "faith" -- of accepting what you are told on faith and without question. Religious power and authority are at least as easily abusable as military, political or economic power thanks to the unquestioning hold it has over so many.

Those who question why the town of Salem, Massachusetts rose up for a horrendous act straight out of the dark ages, burning girls to death based on "he said/she said" rumor and superstition without questioning their rationality, or why the Christian majority in Germany supported Hitler's rise to power without too many qualms, as well as how pedophilic priests get away with their horrible sins for so many years, I think fail to understand this. It doesn't even matter whether or not there is a God -- from sheer peer pressure, you go along with where the flock is going, even if the shepherd is leading the flock to the slaughterhouse.

I don't disagree with your assessment of religious authority as being as abusable as other forms of authority. However, don't think that the Salem incident would have been more appropriate to the Dark Ages. The major periods of persecutions of "witches" were in antiquity (Livy describes some major purges) and the early modern period. The Middle Ages, including the "Dark Ages", were one of the least witch-hunting periods of history. This was, in large part, because the Catholic Church at that time denied that witches existed and discouraged such activities. In fact we're currently living in a time of increased "witch" hunts, if you consider what's going on in a number of African countries with regard to so-called "witches", including many children.

The question whether Christians have caused more deaths through religious intolerance than they have suffered is an interesting one. There's no way that we can collate accurate figures for either group, but let's have a go to see if we can get an approximate guess by looking at the most significant events that we'd need to consider.

I'll leave out the numbers of Christians killed by other Christians, since they would presumably be added to both columns anyway and therefore not affect the result.

People killed by Christians

This is people killed by Christians specifically for religious reasons, rather than people killed by Christians who happened to be of another religion. So I won't count, for example, the actions of the conquistadors.

First, pagans persecuted in late antiquity and the early Middle Ages, under the Byzantines and the emerging Christian powers in Europe. Very hard to estimate figures for these, but I think they must be small. In the Byzantine empire, there were very few pagans by Justinian's time, although certainly there were some. Their earlier resistance had been broken in the 390s by a series of legislation and the battle of the River Frigidus. As far as I can tell, most pagans were forcibly baptised or were suppressed in similar fashion, rather than being executed, although certainly some were. Manichaeans were also executed. So I don't know what kinds of figures we're talking about here, but my guess is that it's in the hundreds. As for western Europe during the first millennium AD, it is even harder to guess, except that as far as I can tell execution was again not a major feature of the process. Certainly a lot of pagans got killed in the process, but then so did a lot of Christians too. Once again it was more a matter of suppressing pagan practices rather than killing pagans. If we count events such as Charlemagne's killing of pagan Saxons in the course of his wars against them, then we've got perhaps a few thousand deaths.

Then we have the northern crusades, as they are sometimes called, conducted by the Christian Scandinavian powers against their non-Christian neighbours. Whether we can really count wars of this kind as "religious persecution" is a moot point, but let's assume that we can. A problem is that I have no idea how many people died in these wars.

The Albigensian crusade, a more obvious example of massacres fuelled by religious intolerance. Certainly tens of thousands of people killed here.

The inquisition - shouldn't really be here as it's Christian-on-Christian persecution, but still. Probably around 2,000 deaths in total.

The witch hunts - again, shouldn't really be here, for the same reason. The notion that the "witches" were practitioners of ancient pagan religions is a modern romantic myth; in fact they were just ordinary people. Estimates of the dead vary wildly but a figure of around 35,000 is now considered most probable. (Ronald Hutton, the major authority on this subject, gives a figure of double this.)

Persecutions of Jews throughout the Middle Ages and early modern times. (I'm talking about religious persecution rather than modern, racially-based persecution such as that of the Nazis.) Again the numbers here are impossible to estimate but certainly very large, given the massacres that occurred during various of the Crusades. I'm going to make a wild guess of 100,000 people, but perhaps this is a severe under-estimate.

Killings of Christians

First, the afore-discussed Roman persecutions. A couple of thousand deaths, perhaps.

Next, the Sassanid persecutions. Far more wide-ranging - certainly tens of thousands of deaths.

Massacres during the Muslim invasions of the seventh century - for example, the mass killings of Coptic monks during the invasion of Egypt. I have no idea how many people these would be, but let's say a few hundred.

Tamerlane's campaigns - enormous numbers of Christians killed, making Tamerlane, I suspect, the greatest single persecutor of Christianity in history. His campaigns were what basically destroyed the Church of the East, at one time larger than the Catholic and Orthodox churches put together. Christians massacred, evicted, or forcibly converted throughout central Asia, the Middle East, and Armenia and Georgia. Certainly tens of thousands of people killed, probably a lot more.

Now the modern period:

Vietnam: Vietnam was divided into two kingdoms during this time, and this gave both regimes an added reason to be suspicious of Christians, whom they both suspected of being spies of the other kingdom. Around 30,000 Christians are thought to have been killed there during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. This situation continued into the nineteenth century: just between 1857 and 1862, 5,000 Christians there are thought to have been tortured to death. This situation ended only with French occupation in the later nineteenth century. So there were certainly many tens of thousands of Christians killed here throughout the period.

Japan: by 1600 there were some 300,000 Japanese Christians - the Catholic missions there had been exceptionally successful. Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Iyeyasu ordered a number of attacks on Christians but they were not effective. Tokugawa Hidetada and Tokugawa Iyemitsu conducted far more thorough persecutions. Certainly thousands of people were killed, thousands more were tortured. The church was effectively destroyed completely, leaving only the Kakure Kirihorsehockyan, who slowly forgot their faith over the next two and a half centuries.

Korea: the church here grew quickly during the nineteenth century and was stamped upon by the authorities almost as quickly. Priests were routinely tortured to death and there were many massacres. The worst were in the late 1860s, when around 10,000 Christians are thought to have been killed, and many more died of starvation.

China: there were periodic persecutions during the eighteenth century, the greatest being in the 1780s. But I don't know what the numbers would be. The Boxer rebellion in 1900 saw tens of thousands of Chinese Christians of all denominations killed: Christians were among the Boxers' chief targets, as representatives of foreign religion. The Cultural Revolution saw many Christians among its victims, but I don't know how many.

Communist Europe: certainly many Christians died in Stalin's purges, but I don't know roughly how many. Other communist countries suppressed the churches but didn't tend to kill people quite so much.

These are just the major persecutions by and of Christians that I can think of off the top of my head. There are certainly many others in both categories, but I suspect more in the latter than in the former. I haven't touched on things like the Armenian genocide where it's less obviously a case of religious persecution. It seems to me pretty clear from these figures that the persecutions of Christians are almost certainly much greater than those by Christians, overall, but again, this can only be a guess of the roughest kind, not least because it is not easy to establish which events count as religious persecution in the first place.
 
I wouldn't say it was hyped up to generate outrage. Whatever the actual numbers of Christians killed, all Christians lived under threat of their lives; if they were left alone, it was only because the local governor felt like it, and they never knew when he might change his mind or be replaced. For every Christian who was actually executed, there would have been many, many more who knew them or witnessed the event. They also had writings by those who witnessed it (such as the description of the martyrdom of Polycarp) or by the martyrs themselves (such as Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Romans). It's hardly possible for us to appreciate the psychological effect that all of this had on the church, no matter how small the numbers of direct victims may have been.

Given the pervasive persecutions later instigated by the Christian churches I think we can imagine. ;)
 
Certainly Christians would be privy to exaggerating the number of Christians killed under the Roman persecutions, but that doesn't automatically exclude a death toll in the tens-of-thousands. The methodology for knocking the number to <10,000 is usually by excluding every Christian source because they're unreliable; which raises the question of why the same isn't done for the Roman sources, which would be equally (if not moreso) unreliable.

They'd want to, but my count grants the highest carnage due to religious intolerance at the hands of the Christians. To me, it centers around the glorification of "faith" -- of accepting what you are told on faith and without question. Religious power and authority are at least as easily abusable as military, political or economic power thanks to the unquestioning hold it has over so many.

Not Christians, nor does anyone, accept what they are told on faith without question. This is a strawman that is logically self-destructive when examined. People can have doublethinks or otherwise incoherent/inconsistent beliefs, but they always have some reason for doing so.

You can believe Christianity is a bad idea if you'd like, but at least be accurate when you're attempting to criticize it.
 
Some Christians accept what they're told on faith without question, as do some people of other religious persuasions. Of course, from a Catholic point of view, that is fideism and therefore heretical, but I don't think you can deny that it happens at all.

Not that that really has much bearing on the topic of the thread, though.
 
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