Christianity and the graven image

[jameson]

History has a way of repeating itself. The sect of Judaism known as Christianity became known as Roman Catholicism when it was adopted by Rome.

AFAIK, it became known as Roman Catholicism after the church schism of the 11th century to distinguish between Western Christianity and the Eastern Orthodox Church, the adjective referring to the location of the Holy See (the bishopric of Rome), recognized in the West as the supreme authority of the Church.

 

[Chieftess]

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

My question is mainly directed at Christians, but of course anyone is welcome to chime in, as long as it doesnt turn into an attack on Christianity, thats not my intention.

How does Christianity reconcile these prohibitions in the Scripture against the worship of graven images, and the veneration of the crucifix? In most denominations, an enormous graven image of Jesus on the cross is the focal point of the church. Is there soime sort of accepted theological explanation for that apparent contradiction?

Like many things, it's something to remind us of something. Way back went, maybe less than 20% of people could read. So, the next best thing they had were things they could construct out of wood and stone to help describe a story. It's just like today (in an era when most can read), we have not only books, but pictures of past events, people, presidents (do we worship them? No.).

I know what this question is going to lead in to, so I'll answer it here.

No, Catholics do not worship the saints, or Mary. The term "pray to" comes from a colliqual English term, "I Pray Thee" (read up on your Shakespeare if you've never heard of it! ). It simply means, "I request". You're asking them to pray for you, just as you would ask someone else who's still living to pray for you. Modern English tends to confuse the words, since it's being lost in translation. (This is just one reason why many Protestant bibles will have different text in them - other reasons is another topic for another thread).

I am a baptist. But my church does not belong to a tyopical denomination because all decisions are made directly by the Church members.

Personally, coming from a Lutheran background, and seeing how such a thing plays out, I think this is the worse thing that can happen to a church. It allows it to be swayed by popular opinion, and the pastor has no say. (A pastor is supposed to lead the flock, not the other way around). This reasoning is one of the reasons I favor the Catholic Church.

 

[Homie]

I was raised as a Catholic. When I think of all the praying to graven images I saw when growing up, it makes my head spin. I remember my grandmother very solemnly giving me a Scapulario and telling me to keep it with me always, so that if I suddenly died, Id go straight to Heaven.

That is not rooted in scripture whatsoever, but superstition mixed in with CHristianity. You see this mostly with Catholocism, and especially in South America where the Christian faith is mixed with the pagan. (NOt bashing Catholics here, we're all friends now )

And as has already been mentioned, in context we see that the passage is talking about idols, not graven images in general, like a photo or drawing.

And yes there is a difference between having a cross or statue of Jesus and that of the idols of the old pagans, because the old pagans actually believed they were worshipping real gods, that the idol was not symbolic, but an actual god.

 

[El_Machinae]

A pastor is supposed to lead the flock, not the other way around

To think this is a good idea seems to be the assumption that the pastor is more in tune with God's will.

 

[Chieftess]

To think this is a good idea seems to be the assumption that the pastor is more in tune with God's will.

Which is why in the Catholic Church, the pope is infallible in faith and morals, and the Pope also selects the Cardinals and Bishops. (yes, priests can go astray, which is why there's excommunication (even for bishops and cardinals) - so they don't lead the congregation astray).

But, that's another debate for another topic...

 

[classical_hero]

Personally, coming from a Lutheran background, and seeing how such a thing plays out, I think this is the worse thing that can happen to a church. It allows it to be swayed by popular opinion, and the pastor has no say. (A pastor is supposed to lead the flock, not the other way around). This reasoning is one of the reasons I favor the Catholic Church.

Obviously you have no experience in this sort of Church. It is also obvious you do not understand what the role of the Pastor is. Basically the word pastor comes from the greek word "poimen" which means shepherd. The role of the Pastor is to be the one who rules and protect the flock (his Church). The sheep are not meant to be the ones who makes the decisions without the leaders input. It is not like we make a decision about an issue without any input from our Pastor. Often issues get dealt with before hand even before we vote on the issue so most of the times it is actually just a formality any votes and basically just to make a decision final. Also it was this sort of decision making in the Congregationalist type Churches that was the foundation of modern Democracy was done.

Back to the issue at hand. Whenever I go to one of the higher churches (Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglican), which is not often, I do get saddedn because I see too many images in those types of churches.

@Bozo, no problem, I was just stating a fact.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

That is not rooted in scripture whatsoever, but superstition mixed in with CHristianity. You see this mostly with Catholocism, and especially in South America where the Christian faith is mixed with the pagan. (NOt bashing Catholics here, we're all friends now )

Are we?(creepy music) Anyway, the scapulario is alot older than the Spanish presence in Latin America.

The scapular originates in the habits worn by the monastic orders, beginning with the Benedictines, and later adapted by many other religious communities. Basically, the scapular is a piece of cloth, about chest-wide from shoulder to shoulder, and drapes down the front and the back of the person with an opening for the head. At first, the scapular served more as an apron worn during work, especially farm work; consequently, in the Rule of St. Benedict identified it as the "scapulare propter opera" ("the scapular because of works").

After the ninth century, a monk received the scapular after the profession of vows, and it became known as "the yoke of Christ" (iugum Christi) and "the shield of Christ" (scutum Christi). While certain modifications were made by the various communities, the scapular was a distinctive part of the religious habit.

Over time, pious lay people who worked closely with the monastic communities adopted a smaller version of the scapular. This smaller scapular consisted of two small pieces of cloth joined by two strings, and was worn around the neck and underneath a person’s clothing. Eventually these smaller scapulars were marks of membership in confraternities, groups of laity who joined together, attaching themselves to the apostolate of a religious community and accepting certain rules and regulations.

Eventually, these smaller versions of the scapular became even more popular among the laity. To date, the Church has approved 18 different scapulars, distinguished by color, symbolism and devotion. Most scapulars still signify a person’s affiliation with a particular confraternity, at least loosely. The following is a brief description of the six most popular ones:

http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/02ws/ws020801.htm

And as has already been mentioned, in context we see that the passage is talking about idols, not graven images in general, like a photo or drawing.

Those two passages are pretty clear and unambiguous. They dont say, thou shalt not raise graven images, except for images of Christ, the Virgin Mary and the Saints.

And yes there is a difference between having a cross or statue of Jesus and that of the idols of the old pagans, because the old pagans actually believed they were worshipping real gods, that the idol was not symbolic, but an actual god.

People have said that several times. Why would anyone get on his or her knees, clasp their palms together and pray to a mere symbol? What would be the motivation? No, I think whats happening when a Catholic crosses himself and prays in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary, or Jesus on the Cross, is the same exact thing thats happening when pagans did the same with their divine images.

 

[El_Machinae]

I also don't think that people think the actual statue is the being that will bring the rains and victory in battle. It certainly doesn't make sense that each person thought they had the actual Ra in their alcove ... just like everyone else.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

AFAIK, it became known as Roman Catholicism after the church schism of the 11th century to distinguish between Western Christianity and the Eastern Orthodox Church, the adjective referring to the location of the Holy See (the bishopric of Rome), recognized in the West as the supreme authority of the Church.

Im sure youre right, but no matter what it was called before the 11th century, when the Romans adopted the religion, it became Roman Catholicism. The same thing happens wherever the religion goes, it takes on local charecteristics.

@classical: understood Captain.

I also don't think that people think the actual statue is the being that will bring the rains and victory in battle. It certainly doesn't make sense that each person thought they had the actual Ra in their alcove ... just like everyone else.

Yeah I dont think Pagans would be that dumb. I think that in the case of the Pagan and the Catholic, its more like that the image, along with the candles and the prayer, will attract the god or saints attention and favor.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No, Catholics do not worship the saints, or Mary. The term "pray to" comes from a colliqual English term, "I Pray Thee" (read up on your Shakespeare if you've never heard of it! ). It simply means, "I request". You're asking them to pray for you, just as you would ask someone else who's still living to pray for you. Modern English tends to confuse the words, since it's being lost in translation. (This is just one reason why many Protestant bibles will have different text in them - other reasons is another topic for another thread).

Theres definitely alot of semantics at play here. The explanations Ive heard so far about the graven images in Chritianity just sound to me like 2000 years of great lawyers talking

 

[classical_hero]

No, Catholics do not worship the saints, or Mary. The term "pray to" comes from a colliqual English term, "I Pray Thee" (read up on your Shakespeare if you've never heard of it! ). It simply means, "I request". You're asking them to pray for you, just as you would ask someone else who's still living to pray for you. Modern English tends to confuse the words, since it's being lost in translation. (This is just one reason why many Protestant bibles will have different text in them - other reasons is another topic for another thread).

Isn't that what praying o God is about, requesting for things to happen. So what is the real difference from praying to God and praying to the saints?

 

[Homie]

People have said that several times. Why would anyone get on his or her knees, clasp their palms together and pray to a mere symbol? What would be the motivation? No, I think whats happening when a Catholic crosses himself and prays in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary, or Jesus on the Cross, is the same exact thing thats happening when pagans did the same with their divine images.

That may be your opinion, I disagree.

Personally I could not say though, as I don't pray in front of a statue or image, I pray wherever I'm at, usually in bed before I go to sleep. But I do have both images and crosses in my room.

 

[Leonel]

It's kind of like a nations flag. You don't actually pledge allegence to the actual colored fabric but to what it represents. Or you don't support a popular figure but you support the cause that popular figure is advocating.

 

[GenMarshall]

Isn't that what praying o God is about, requesting for things to happen. So what is the real difference from praying to God and praying to the saints?

As Catholics, were not praying to the saint. We are making a pention to God on behalf of others which is known as Intercessory prayer. If a believer prays for her children or friends, his enemies or leaders, then the believer is interceding on behalf of another. The doctrine of saintly intercession goes back to the earliest church. The justification for calling upon a saint in prayer is that the saints are both close to God, because of their holiness, and accessible to humans.

Intercession of saints is common in both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity .

 

[Heretic_Cata]

The justification for calling upon a saint in prayer is that the saints are both close to God, because of their holiness, and accessible to humans.
Intercession of saints is common in both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity .

Yup, this is the reason why we pray to them ... it's like saying to the saints: "Hey dude, wassup ? ... can you put in a good word for me."

I only have an icon with Jesus on a wall in my room. My parents have a icon of Saint Andrew (our region's patron saint) in their room ...

I belive that you can pray to anyone you want, wherever you want ... it's just that praying to at statue, shrine, icon is nice.

 

[El_Machinae]

The doctrine of saintly intercession goes back to the earliest church

Is there any Biblical evidence of one of the later apostles praying via the earlier apostles? I mean, I'm sure some apostles were dead by the time Paul got going ...

 

[GenMarshall]

Is there any Biblical evidence of one of the later apostles praying via the earlier apostles? I mean, I'm sure some apostles were dead by the time Paul got going ...

In Luke 16:19-31 on Jesus's parable of Dives and Lazarus would indicate the ability of the dead to pray for the living. Paul's referance to Jesus Christ as an advocate for the believers indicates that Jesus, living at the right hand of God, will intercede (pray) for the believer which is found in Romans 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25. In short, other holy persons who are dead might intercede on behalf of the petitioner.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[El_Machinae]

In Luke 16:19-31 on Jesus's parable of Dives and Lazarus would indicate the ability of the dead to pray for the living.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing in that text. To me, it looks like explaining Hell to the person who was sent there. In fact, it's very clear that Abraham will not send Lazarus to witness to the living relatives.

 

[Chieftess]

Obviously you have no experience in this sort of Church. It is also obvious you do not understand what the role of the Pastor is. Basically the word pastor comes from the greek word "poimen" which means shepherd. The role of the Pastor is to be the one who rules and protect the flock (his Church).

That's what I said...

 

[Underdawg]

That's why I don't wear my gold necklace cross anymore or go to Catholic Church.

I have long pondered on this. There was even a feud on this in the Old East Roman Empire! The Iconoclast conflict!

So yeah.