Citizenship vs. hijabs/niqabs/burkas. Fight!

And in the event that the queen decides to change that balance, by Canadian law she can...if the government decides to change that balance, by Canadian law they cannot. That's the reality of a constitutional monarchy. It's all well and good to say the Queen won't, but it is totally pretense to say that the Queen can't. If the Queen says tomorrow that it has come to her attention that Canadian posters on CFC feel they do not owe her their allegiance and she wants them to present the oath of citizenship to proper authorities, she would be within her constitutionally granted rights.
 
Maybe this will help you understand what we've set up here:

In Canada’s system of government, the power to govern is vested in the Crown but is entrusted to the government to use on behalf of the people. The Crown reminds the government of the day that the source of the power to govern rests elsewhere and that it is only given to them for a limited duration. As an enduring institution, the Crown serves to safeguard Canadians’ rights and freedoms."

So yeah, the Queen could go crazy. But if the Queen goes crazy, there are going to be a lot other problems going down in Britain that are going to make any potential issues we're going to have here in Canada irrelevant.
 
Maybe this will help you understand what we've set up here:



So yeah, the Queen could go crazy. But if the Queen goes crazy, there are going to be a lot other problems going down in Britain that are going to make any potential issues we're going to have here in Canada irrelevant.

I understand the relationship between the people and the crown. It's only when I see things like "oh, well, the oath is to the country" or "the Monarch is also head of the Church of England, but we are a totally secular country because the Monarch really has nothing to do with us" or "the queen has nothing to do with government" that I get amused.

By the way, I doubt that the Canadian legal system would consider a royal request that citizens repeat their oath of allegiance to the crown to be 'crazy'. In fact if I were Canadian I would be expecting to do so upon the death of this queen and the crowning of whoever the next monarch is.
 
Yeah well, that's just like your opinion, neighbourly American dude. Your peculiar ways of doing things amuse us also. Let us drink to our many differences, etc.

I'm always for that! I actually think your Queen is pretty cool, myself. I'd bend the knee, if Canada wasn't so obstinate about letting me in.
 
The Queen would actually have a hard time doing anything legally speaking. See, the Queen doesn't have much she can do directly in Canadian constitutionalism - she has power in name (and some power in practice), but in practice, much of the Queen's powers in Canada is actually (per the constitution) exercised by the Governor General in her name.

Fun fact: guess which position the Canadian constitution doesn't really define the appointment process for. And guess who doesn't have the power to make up a definition. (Clue: she has a crown).

Now guess who, on the other hand, DOES have the power to make up a definition if they really need to (Clue: they work - when Harper doesn't shut the place down - a few kilometers from my place). I mean, they'd need the approval of the provincial assemblies, but still.

For that matter, they have the power to take the constitution and erase every referene to the word "Queen" in it and replace them by "The Prime Minister" or whatever other person they deem suitable. Sure, that require the approbation of the Governor General, but that brings us back to the original problem...
 
From the Canadian constitution:

56. Where the Governor General assents to a Bill in the Queen’s Name, he shall by the first convenient Opportunity send an authentic Copy of the Act to One of Her Majesty’s Principal Secretaries of State, and if the Queen in Council within Two Years after Receipt thereof by the Secretary of State thinks fit to disallow the Act, such Disallowance (with a Certificate of the Secretary of State of the Day on which the Act was received by him) being signified by the Governor General, by Speech or Message to each of the Houses of the Parliament or by Proclamation, shall annul the Act from and after the Day of such Signification.

If the Governor General gives consent without consultation, the Queen has two years where she can overrule him.

57. A Bill reserved for the Signification of the Queen’s Pleasure shall not have any Force unless and until, within Two Years from the Day on which it was presented to the Governor General for the Queen’s Assent, the Governor General signifies, by Speech or Message to each of the Houses of the Parliament or by Proclamation, that it has received the Assent of the Queen in Council.

The Governor General can forward the act to the Queen for her direct approval or lack thereof if he chooses.


The reason the constitution contains nothing about the selection process for a Governor General is because the Queen is not subject to Canadian law, including the constitution, and she can in fact choose anyone she wants so there is no reason to write out a process. She generally takes the recommendation of the parliament, but she is in no way bound to do so.
 
Sorry, but you're just plain wrong.

First, section 56 is pretty easy to work around if need be (the Queen cannot veto the act until the GG sends her an authentic copy. Which he is to do "at the first convenient opportunity". Note how "convenient" is not given a definition. One could see the GG deciding that sending a full-blown tyrannical mode queen any authentic acts is decidedly IN-convenient.

Second, it's not about how the queen chose who to appoint ; it's about the queen appointign the GG at all. There's nothing in the Constitution that says she does. She gets to do so because it is constitutional tradition - and constitutional tradition is not legally binding. The Queen being the one who has the authority to appoint the GG rests on the exact same authority as the prime minister's executive authority.

Third, the Queen, in her capacity as Queen of Canada, is in fact subject to the constitution of Canada, which defines her powers, limits her powers, and, since the repatriation, entrust in people who aren't the queen the power to change her powers.

Fourth, as noted above, if all else fail, the parliament, with the assent of the senate and the provincial legislatures, and a proclamation from the GG (which, not being a bill, does not require the Queen's approval nor enable her to veto it), can issue a proclamation abolishing the monarchy, or removing or altering the Queen's power in any way they see fit. That's section 41 of the 1982 Constitution Act, and it's the golden snitch of this whole debate. It doesn't matter what theoretical power the Queen has: if she misuses them, the legislatures have the very real power of "Too bad, so sad" , ie wiping her from the Constitution altogether (or just limiting any bloody power of the Queen they want to limit).

This is a British-style monarchy. Parliamentary Sovereignty - parliament, not the monarch, is the supreme authority - is very much a thing.
 
Really? I think it's an American/ Western thing. My mother feels it is profoundly disrespectful if I look her in the eyes while speaking. I've found I can usually lessen the hot water I'm in just by not looking her in the eyes as she yells at me.
And here, that avoidance of eye contact is what would be considered disrespectful.

If I was talking to someone and happened not to be looking them in the eye and they told me 'look at me when I'm talking to you!', I wouldn't be particularly impressed.

Incidentally, in quite a few places direct eye contact is a sign of insolence or even aggression.
I didn't ask if you were impressed. I just asked if your parents had ever said that to you. It's something that usually happens between a parent and child, or some other adult in authority to a child (ie. a teacher).

As for insolence and aggression... it can seem that way, if the person doing the looking is staring, and/or displaying other non-verbals, such as rolling the eyes.

Consider the smileys we have here on the forum. There was a discussion a few years back about deleting the :rolleyes: smiley because some people felt it was too easy for posters to convey contempt or behave obnoxiously. Luckily we have other smileys that are good at conveying degrees of disapproval or negativity so the :rolleyes: doesn't get used as often (at least not by me; if you see me use it, be advised that it means I am either profoundly annoyed or expressing my contempt of what was said previously on the point I am addressing).

The trick with looking people in the eye when they're talking to you is to find the balance between attentiveness and staring. Attentiveness is an indication of respect. Staring can mean lots of different things, depending on context.

source

Facial cues play an important part in the way we communicate as a species. It is of course possible to communicate if your face isn't showing, but we have evolved abilities to spot intricate changes in facial expression. Psychologically speaking it plays a rather large role in traditional spoken communication.
100% agreed. It can also play a role in how we interact with some animals. Looking a dog in the eye can result in the dog attacking you. But looking a cat in the eye can result in the cat trusting you.

The way Canadians consistently pretend they don't live in a monarchy continues to amaze and amuse. As the CivIV quote says "I am the state." Allegiance to Canada is allegiance to the Queen, period. If someone doesn't want to acknowledge that reality they can't be a citizen. Citizens who don't want to acknowledge that reality are fortunate the Queen laughs them off.
Back to that again... :huh: (somewhat less than profound annoyance, but still annoyed)

And in the event that the queen decides to change that balance, by Canadian law she can...if the government decides to change that balance, by Canadian law they cannot. That's the reality of a constitutional monarchy. It's all well and good to say the Queen won't, but it is totally pretense to say that the Queen can't. If the Queen says tomorrow that it has come to her attention that Canadian posters on CFC feel they do not owe her their allegiance and she wants them to present the oath of citizenship to proper authorities, she would be within her constitutionally granted rights.
Except that the Canadian posters on CFC did not say they feel they don't owe her our allegiance (if I'm in error, please feel free to correct me on that point). I was talking about 3 people who have refused to complete their requirements to get their citizenship. As for presenting the oath of citizenship, I was born here. I never had to take an oath of citizenship because I have always been a citizen of Canada.

I understand the relationship between the people and the crown. It's only when I see things like "oh, well, the oath is to the country" or "the Monarch is also head of the Church of England, but we are a totally secular country because the Monarch really has nothing to do with us" or "the queen has nothing to do with government" that I get amused.
Practically speaking, the Queen really doesn't have a whole lot to do with us. Just because she could, doesn't mean she would. The last time she voiced an opinion on any Canadian political matter (she favored the Meech Lake Accord), she garnered a lot of criticism. By custom, the Queen cuts ribbons, makes appearances, shakes hands, waves to people, and does whatever other ceremonial things she does. And whatever her opinions may be, she's expected to keep her mouth shut about them, at least in public.

That said, it would be nice if someone would do something about Harper, but we're stuck with him until he either steps down voluntarily or loses an election. If Michaelle Jean wouldn't do anything, it's doubtful that a GG Harper actually appointed would (yeah, I know that officially the Queen appoints the Governor-General; however, it's understood that she just automatically accepts the person the Prime Minister recommends, and the effect is that the GG is essentially appointed by the PM, not the monarch).

BTW, Canada has no official religion. We're not a theocracy. Religious services are not mandatory. We don't treat our PM or even the Queen herself with any kind of religious reverence.

By the way, I doubt that the Canadian legal system would consider a royal request that citizens repeat their oath of allegiance to the crown to be 'crazy'. In fact if I were Canadian I would be expecting to do so upon the death of this queen and the crowning of whoever the next monarch is.
It should be interesting to see what happens when Her Majesty dies - if Charles steps aside in favor of William, or if he opts to take the job he's trained for all these decades.

I'm always for that! I actually think your Queen is pretty cool, myself. I'd bend the knee, if Canada wasn't so obstinate about letting me in.
Is there some reason you're not allowed in Canada?
 
BTW, Canada has no official religion. We're not a theocracy. Religious services are not mandatory. We don't treat our PM or even the Queen herself with any kind of religious reverence.

No, but we are constitutionally a theist - arguably monotheist - nation. (And this preamble has been used in court notably to defend prayers before town councils and other similar notions.

Preamble to the Charter of Rights said:
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law

So Tim's right about Canada not being altogether secular. For entirely the wrong reasons (Elizabeth Windsor, Queen of Canada is effectively distinct from Elizabeth Windsor, Head of the Church of England; the one role is without link to the other), but he's got the right conclusion.
 
No, but we are constitutionally a theist - arguably monotheist - nation. (And this preamble has been used in court notably to defend prayers before town councils and other similar notions.

So Tim's right about Canada not being altogether secular. For entirely the wrong reasons (Elizabeth Windsor, Queen of Canada is effectively distinct from Elizabeth Windsor, Head of the Church of England; the one role is without link to the other), but he's got the right conclusion.
I realize that there are sentences and clauses in the Constitution pertaining to religion. I wish they weren't there, but as I said umpteen posts ago, compromises were necessary.
 
Indeed. Compromises is the essence of our constitutional order.
 
Is there some reason you're not allowed in Canada?

Yes.

So Tim's right about Canada not being altogether secular. For entirely the wrong reasons (Elizabeth Windsor, Queen of Canada is effectively distinct from Elizabeth Windsor, Head of the Church of England; the one role is without link to the other), but he's got the right conclusion.

My bad...the Queen of England is head of the Church of England...and the Queen of England is the Queen of Canada...but that indeed does not make the Queen of Canada head of the Church of England. It is conceivable that Canada could at some point have their own monarch rather than sharing with England, though that seems unlikely. You aren't part of the united kingdom though, so I suppose she could leave you guys to some lesser heir.

Another thing I'm right about, that doesn't really matter in practice, is that the Governor General and everyone else in the executive branch is bound by oath to serve the Queen so they aren't going to go around her authority, and she is genuinely not bound by law. As everyone keeps pointing out, Canada has a constitutional monarchy comparable to England, and England relies on the idea that if the monarch does not willingly comply with the elected representatives of the people said people will probably revolt (though no one really knows).

Your 'conventional' way of doing business follows the English model, which is rooted in the English civil war and their brief experiment with not having a monarch after they lopped off the king's head (which went badly, as experiments so often do, so they got a new king...which was more practical than sticking the old one's head back on I suppose). Admittedly this is a strong incentive, but it isn't law. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the whole relationship with the Queen really isn't written down anywhere.
 
I didn't ask if you were impressed. I just asked if your parents had ever said that to you. It's something that usually happens between a parent and child, or some other adult in authority to a child (ie. a teacher).

Precisely. You're implicitly equating adult, law-abiding (Muslim) people with naughty children - just another of the troubling and probably off-hand metaphors which keep propping up here. As I said, I wouldn't stand for it if another adult, now, spoke to me like that, and I have every right not to look them in the eye - it might not be seen as courteous, but the law (thankfully) doesn't demand that we're always lovely to each other.
 
Yes.



My bad...the Queen of England is head of the Church of England...and the Queen of England is the Queen of Canada...but that indeed does not make the Queen of Canada head of the Church of England. It is conceivable that Canada could at some point have their own monarch rather than sharing with England, though that seems unlikely. You aren't part of the united kingdom though, so I suppose she could leave you guys to some lesser heir.

Another thing I'm right about, that doesn't really matter in practice, is that the Governor General and everyone else in the executive branch is bound by oath to serve the Queen so they aren't going to go around her authority, and she is genuinely not bound by law. As everyone keeps pointing out, Canada has a constitutional monarchy comparable to England, and England relies on the idea that if the monarch does not willingly comply with the elected representatives of the people said people will probably revolt (though no one really knows).

Your 'conventional' way of doing business follows the English model, which is rooted in the English civil war and their brief experiment with not having a monarch after they lopped off the king's head (which went badly, as experiments so often do, so they got a new king...which was more practical than sticking the old one's head back on I suppose). Admittedly this is a strong incentive, but it isn't law. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the whole relationship with the Queen really isn't written down anywhere.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I already pointed out the part of the Canadian Constitution that explicitly state that parliament has the power to make constitutional amendement regarding the role of the queen. It says so. Black on white, at the heart of Canadian constitutional order. Can't be clearer than that. Yes, her role is a constitutional matter, and yes, it can be amended.

That's the bottom line. Parliament wins out against the Queen because Parliament (with the support of the provinces) can change the Queen's power. They don't need a revolt, at least not one with guns and heads-lopping-of. They just need a bit of political rebellion, and voila. No more Queen.

Our system is inspired by the British system, for sure (including that quaint little british concept you must have missed while reading about them, they call it parliamentary sovereignty), but we have a few tricks they don't. A modern written constitution is one of them, and it does actually set limits on the monarch.

As for oath of loyalty: breaking oaths is a thing that happen. Give these people a sufficient pretext (like the Queen going into tyrant mode), and they will do it. The parliaments that revolted against the King had oaths, too. So did the parliaments of several ex-colonies that voted to abolish the monarchy. They had oaths. Didn't really stop them, did it?
 
Precisely. You're implicitly equating adult, law-abiding (Muslim) people with naughty children - just another of the troubling and probably off-hand metaphors which keep propping up here.
Anyone can find anything if they look hard enough for it and want enough for it to be there.
She asked that obviously to show that in our culture, looking at someone is a sign of attention and not looking at someone is a sign of disrespect ("I don't listen to you"). You deliberately chose to twist that into an adult-child-anti-Muslim comparison. Make of that what you will, but *I* find this ability to desperately look for 'racism' clues much more telling than the supposedly revealing "metaphor".
As I said, I wouldn't stand for it if another adult, now, spoke to me like that, and I have every right not to look them in the eye - it might not be seen as courteous, but the law (thankfully) doesn't demand that we're always lovely to each other.
YOU DON'T RESPECT HER HABITS OF LOOKING PEOPLE IN THE FACE JUST BE CAUSE YOU'RE RACIST !

(yes that's sarcasm)
 
Did you forget your posts where you're predicting pogroms?

I dunno about forgetting, but I certainly don't remember making such posts.

Again, the distinction you're not getting is explained by the simple concept of trends. It's like how climate scientists are not necessarily predicting anything when they are making projections about weather patterns or global temperatures based on current trends.

NovaKart said:
You made a weak case for that.

And you make a weak case for your own ability to grasp simple concepts.

Two can play at this game.
 
Anyone can find anything if they look hard enough for it and want enough for it to be there.
She asked that obviously to show that in our culture, looking at someone is a sign of attention and not looking at someone is a sign of disrespect ("I don't listen to you"). You deliberately chose to twist that into an adult-child-anti-Muslim comparison. Make of that what you will, but *I* find this ability to desperately look for 'racism' clues much more telling than the supposedly revealing "metaphor".

YOU DON'T RESPECT HER HABITS OF LOOKING PEOPLE IN THE FACE JUST BE CAUSE YOU'RE RACIST !

(yes that's sarcasm)

Actually, it was Valka who brought up the adult-child comparison - I don't think it was deliberate, but I'm responding to the sort of comparisons that people make when trying to talk about Muslims. We've had Valka suggest that Muslims wearing veils are comparable with naughty children, and earlier on people compared wearing a veil in court to 'mooning' the court or arriving covered in excrement. I think it's fair to say that the associations that we jump to reveal how we think about things.

In particular, equating foreigners and subjects with children was a well-worn trope in the days of empire - it was a nice way of both asserting a friendly, paternalistic view of British rule and at the same time legitimising both its existence - because children need a parent, so Indians need a Britain - and its expression. Children aren't entitled to the same treatment as adults, nor are they entirely rational - a parent can slap a child even though they can't slap an adult, which was part of the way that people justified shooting a few dozen or a few thousand Indians to teach them a lesson - after all, naughty children need to be treated firmly. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Again, I don't think anyone making these comparisons today is actively trying to make the same leaps of logic, but they're passively helping others to make them, and that's quite insidious.

Frankly, when we're borrowing our rhetoric from Imperialism for Dummies, we need to stop and think a bit.

This little white man assumption often works out *terribly* for Aboriginal Australians when they interact with white institutions like the police and law. Wonder how it works out for Aboriginal Canadians.

Edit: looks like there's some similar protocols

I think that says it all, really. Again, 'Canadian' is here being taken to mean 'white, secular or loosely-Christian Canadian'. I take issue with that just as I object to British nationalists claiming that anyone who isn't white, Anglo-Saxon and culturally Anglican isn't properly British.
 
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