Civ V Civilizations Roster

[EMT]

I support that entire list save Songhai/Ghana. They where empires founded by the same ethnic group that tended to fall to empires from the same ethnic group; might be kind of redundant, when you could add Benin, Hungary, or Poland to that list. Might be a bit too eurocentric for your tastes, but Hungary and Poland are important. I support axeing the Byzantines anyway, up until the time of 'Byzantine' decline, they where still considered Romans. Justinian was considered Roman, as far as the 11th century. Post-that, I'd consider them the neo-Greek empire. Another possibly civilization might be Nubia/Kush/Axum, they where powers that originated from the Sudan/Somalia/Ethiopia area that conquered large empires, Nubia and Kush conquered Ancient Egypt, Axum conquered Yemen across the Red Sea. Very interesting, underepresented civs.

 

[climat]

I thought Axum was represented by Ethiopia in CivIV.

Obviously it should be based on Olympic medals this year, because that is the true test of a civilization.

Are you serious...?

 

[Tlalynet]

Of course not.

 

[Iván de España]

Songhai and Ghana Empires were ruled by different ethnic groups, the Songhai and the Soninke.
Axum is the name of the first name of Ethiopia, whose Negus Negusti (Kings of Kings) followed the same family line.

Before writing dates, get accurate information. Please.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I don't want to sound like a Stalin supporter but he did modernize Russia greatly. At the end of the Tsarist regime Russia was a backward country with nearly no industry and it was living from selling bread and wood to western Europe. The Russian army was destroyed by the Japanese in 1905 and by the Germans in 1914. During Stalins time Russia was modernized and was capable of defeating Germany and later Japan. Russia was able to develop nuclear weaponry and after Stalins death Russia was superior to USA when it came to space exploration and space flights. I know that Stalin was a murderer but saying he had no lasting positive effect on Russia is like saying Augustus had no lasting effect on Rome.

Augustus built rather more than Stalin did. Until the Bolshevik revolution, Russia was a huge exporter of grain. After the revolution, the country never managed to be even self-supporting with food. First they "solved" the problem by simply letting people starve to death, then by exploiting their satellite countries and finally by importing food from the west. And the only way Stalin managed to industrialize the country was through killng millions of citzens as slave-workers. The superiority in space exploration was very temporary, and due to American passivity.

 

[climat]

Siam(Thailand), Vietnam, Myanmar(Burma) also can be candidates if Khmer's in.

 

[tono213]

how that would actually be interesting ...

Vikings:

Dano-Norwegian (Canute)
Swedish (Gustav Vasa)

In a somewhat different vein...

India:

Buddhist (Ashoka)
Muslim (Babur)
Hindu
Modern (Gandhi)

 

[tono213]

Since it was said that religions are to be kicked out of the game

When was this said and by whom? Reason?

 

[say1988]

Augustus built rather more than Stalin did. Until the Bolshevik revolution, Russia was a huge exporter of grain. After the revolution, the country never managed to be even self-supporting with food. First they "solved" the problem by simply letting people starve to death, then by exploiting their satellite countries and finally by importing food from the west. And the only way Stalin managed to industrialize the country was through killng millions of citzens as slave-workers. The superiority in space exploration was very temporary, and due to American passivity.

He stilled successfully turned his country from a backwater to a superpower. He did it in a brutal fashion, but the fact is that the Soviet Union was in a far better position in the world upon his death than it was when Lenin died.

 

[EMT]

Songhai and Ghana Empires were ruled by different ethnic groups, the Songhai and the Soninke.
Axum is the name of the first name of Ethiopia, whose Negus Negusti (Kings of Kings) followed the same family line.

Before writing dates, get accurate information. Please.

Axum is a related entity of Ethiopia, although their geography is EXACTLY the same. Eritrea could be considered Axum, because Axum was based on Red Sea trade. Although half the world considers Eritrea a rebellious province of Ethiopia......

My argument is sorta shaky, as shaky as Byzantines being Romans, but the period in Ethiopian history that Zara represents is not something I would call Axum. Axum -> Pagan Queen overthrows Axumite Empire -> Ethiopian Empire. If not Axum, maybe an Axumite Emperor representing Axum under Ethiopia? Just saying, it's like Fireaxis not adding the Byzantines, great, but I want Justinian as a leader for Rome. It needs representation just like a Roman Empire without a Byzantine Empire in the game needs some way to represent their later history, except in this case, it's earlier history. I do have accurate information, it'd be nice to not be judged immediately. If we have Byzantines, we can have Axum AND Ethiopia. Although I concede you being entirely right about West Africa and ethnic groups.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Ali is Iranian now?

As far as a pagan Turk in central Asia is concerned, Ali is Iranian. Just like St Peter is Spanish to a 16th century Aztec.

Turks and Mongols in Transoxiana (and Persia and Mesopotamia and Egypt) were pretty well urbanized by the 1300s, Timur being one of them.

The failure of Turks to settle in cities AND retain their culture in central Asia continues long after the 1300s. Tajikistan takes it name from such a phenomenon, Tajik originally meaning "Arab" before meaning something like "settled people" (See Frye, Golden Age of Persia).

It is. Timur isn't Persian. I speak English but I'm not English.

That would be debatable to any pre-modern person. (I'm assuming you are Australian) Your failure to regard yourself as English is the result of your geographical location and a globalised world of clearly divided sovereign states.

And what does being a Muslim has anything to do with this anyway?

Islamicization is a form of Persianisation as far as central Asian Turks are concerned.

The difference being as a ruler of Persia Tamerlane was a regionalist who favored Tranoxiana to the detriment of the rest of the region. The provinces did not benefited less than the capital - they hardly benefited, if at all; most went into decline. And there's the difference in scale...

Debatable and of marginal relevance. Most states have peripheries and cores.

I agree this much, anyway.

There isn't much reason for this discussion, beyond us both learning why the other wants/doesn't want Tamerlane as a Persian leader.

 

[Tee Kay]

As far as a pagan Turk in central Asia is concerned, Ali is Iranian. Just like St Peter is Spanish to a 16th century Aztec.

Timur should know better, having been born and raised not on the steppes but in the relatively sedentary culture of Islamized Central Asia.

The failure of Turks to settle in cities AND retain their culture in central Asia continues long after the 1300s. Tajikistan takes it name from such a phenomenon, Tajik originally meaning "Arab" before meaning something like "settled people" (See Frye, Golden Age of Persia).

IMHO, it's more like settled Turks adopted elements of both Turkish and Iranian/Islamic cultures, rather than becoming completely Iranian, especially between AD1000 - AD1400 when Turks had just arrived in the Islamic lands, becoming urbanized and in many cases set themselves up as a separate ruling class.

That would be debatable to any pre-modern person. (I'm assuming you are Australian) Your failure to regard yourself as English is the result of your geographical location and a globalised world of clearly divided sovereign states.

Actually, my failure to regard myself as English is due to the fact that, ethnically, I'm not English and in fact descended from Chinese immigrants. My point was, just because someone speaks a language, doesn't necessarily mean he is ethnically or often even culturally part of a particular group.

Timur also spoke Turkish, Chagatai and IIRC Mongolian (correct me if I'm wrong). He was a well-urbanized man undoubtedly influenced by both Turkic and Persian cultures. However, the trouble with justifying him as a Persian leader stems these - he was not ethnically Persian, and the rest of Greater Persia (apart from Transoxiana) did not see him as Persian. His rule was highly destructive to Persia save for Samarkand, which makes him a poor choice if one is to include him as a "Persian leader".

Islamicization is a form of Persianisation as far as central Asian Turks are concerned.

Central Asian Turks had been Muslims for a almost three centuries before Timur was born. Islam was pretty much a part of their cultural identity by then.

Debatable and of marginal relevance. Most states have peripheries and cores.

In this case, the core of the Timurid Empire consists only of Transoxiana. The rest of Persia is on periphery.

There isn't much reason for this discussion, beyond us both learning why the other wants/doesn't want Tamerlane as a Persian leader.

Indeed.

 

[DMOC]

Now that the trailer was released, is there an updated list of (almost) confirmed civilizations?

 

[Tee Kay]

Now that the trailer was released, is there an updated list of (almost) confirmed civilizations?

The trailer doesn't really have any information on the game though.

We saw Ottoman Konstantiniyye (not Byzantine Constantinople - the city in the trailer has too many minarets) so perhaps we may see the Ottomans...? Or just the Aya Sofya/Hagia Sophia?

Unfortunately I think Mao might make it into the game.

 

[say1988]

Egyptians
Vikings on a ship
Istanbul/Constantinople (whichever one that means)
Japanese
Mongol warrior

That is what I saw. Whether they are guarantees or not is another matter.

 

[History buff33]

Oh God I hope the Ottomans are in...

 

[say1988]

Not sure who the last clip were....
My first guess would be either a Native American group (just a guess really), or Inca (famous for their empire in the mountains).

Oh God I hope the Ottomans are in...

I do to, especially if one of the two are in, they are by far my choice.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I really hope the trailer was just a trailer, and not actually showcasing the actual civs. The reason being that if the Scandinavians/Vikings are in, that'd be problematic for the rest of us wanting civs from another, non-European region.

Cool trailer though. I hope at this point the civs in the trailer were just in there because.

 

[Mathalamus]

i want the ottomans or Byzantium to be in the game.

whichever one is more balanced for defense gets better use.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Timur should know better, having been born and raised not on the steppes but in the relatively sedentary culture of Islamized Central Asia.

That's not the point. The point is that Islam was part of the Persian cultural package presented to Turkic central Asia. Likewise Mongols becoming Confucian would be Sinicization. That Islam ultimately comes from Arabia and claims to be a universal religion (and is now the dominant religion for all Turks) is quite irrelevant.

IMHO, it's more like settled Turks adopted elements of both Turkish and Iranian/Islamic cultures, rather than becoming completely Iranian, especially between AD1000 - AD1400 when Turks had just arrived in the Islamic lands, becoming urbanized and in many cases set themselves up as a separate ruling class.

Turks derived their military power from NOT being urbanised, and for the bulk of them maintaining their lifestyles and semi-nomadic warriors. If they had become urbanised there would be no Turks. Of course, their interactions with Persian cities were mediated ...

Actually, my failure to regard myself as English is due to the fact that, ethnically, I'm not English and in fact descended from Chinese immigrants. My point was, just because someone speaks a language, doesn't necessarily mean he is ethnically or often even culturally part of a particular group.

Though this is common place and plausible in the modern era, don't assume it was then; this is the point I'm making. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

Timur also spoke Turkish, Chagatai and IIRC Mongolian (correct me if I'm wrong). He was a well-urbanized man undoubtedly influenced by both Turkic and Persian cultures. However, the trouble with justifying him as a Persian leader stems these - he was not ethnically Persian, and the rest of Greater Persia (apart from Transoxiana) did not see him as Persian. His rule was highly destructive to Persia save for Samarkand, which makes him a poor choice if one is to include him as a "Persian leader".

He clearly participates in both cultures (though not Mongol culture). Like I said, he is a famous and successful ruler who ruled Persia. It'd be good to have him in the game. He ruled Persia. Yeah, I know he was destructive, I know he wasn't fully Persian, but it just doesn't matter.

Central Asian Turks had been Muslims for a almost three centuries before Timur was born. Islam was pretty much a part of their cultural identity by then.

Not those ones ... the Turkified Mongols that is ...